The Lost Diary

@ssarah - interesting with Margot. What if Christian's offspring is SUPPOSED to follow in his footsteps?

Jack, however, being from an off islander - will struggle and may not achieve this.

So, Christian goes and has an affair... we don't know much about Claire's mum, now do we? Here I am saying she was in shock at hearing all the news from Kate... I'm wondering if it's all deja vu for her.

Claire is now with Christian as good-island offspring should be.

Aaron would naturally be a part of this also.

Jack is the odd-man-out but does have connections.

JMO

@ssarah - good thoughts on parentage and marrying out of island.

@Michele - Alex isn't necessarily dead cuz of island. Widmore KNEW the island did that - and I believe sent Keamy to kill her to make it APPEAR the island wanted it. I think Widmore had payback in mind for 20years. It took him that long to find island again.

@jade - I don't think the Penny/Ben/Des scene is over -

Rousseau's party - we next see them on the beach, no? We were never shown them coming out of the temple hole, were we?

OK, Adam and Eve - I believe their essences are with Monstah. As are all the other 'dead' folk. It's energy - not physicality with monstah.

Daniel - bummer and feel better. And thanks!

LOVE the Russell Crowe reference. I was thinking the same thing!

A-

I need to disagree with Daniel on the young Widmore bad actor casting thing. I think the actor was perfect to play young Charles Widmore. If you look at his eyes, he actually looks a lot like him. JMO

"I thought the actual showdown between Ben and the Monster was a little cheesy"

I agree on this point, but I really liked this episode. I knew you would like this epi Daniel simply for the Locke/Ben interaction.

Good episode.... so much to discuss. And Desmond was on this episode!!!! love it!!

Can the Ajira survivors be the new 'Hostiles?' Are we seeing the next generation unfold? Claire to be Christian, and then Aaron to succeed her? hhmm

Here are my theories, some of them have been previously mentioned:
Right off the bat I thought "What lies in the shadow of the statue" was code/riddle to determine who was on Alaina's team. I alos think they all work for Widmore, which means he had to find out about the flight, maybe Ellie is a double agent or Widmore found out in other ways.
I also think Jughead lies in the shadow of the statue.
I still believe Ben is inherently good, but confused on his role in the island which leads him to do bad things. I think he is not happy that Locke is the true leader as he (ben) has been led to believe he was.
I am intrigued that Smokey could be Locke.
Who in the DI controlled smokey before? Ben was able to summon from his house on the DI compound, meaning either the DI could control smokey in the past or Ben found that access after the purge on his own. Whos house was that originally? If the DI could control smokey that leads to a whole bunch of other questions. Has anyone seen the M. Night S. Movie (can't remember the name) but the group created the fake monster to keep everyone in the city?

Isn't Charles Charles? I didn't think that was anyone but him - not another actor.

"What lies in the shadow of the statue?"

Wasn't the "magic island moving super happy horizontal wheel well" close to the statue?

And maybe Ilana and co. could be the next wave of Widmore's army. The large container they have in tow apparently contains a weapons cache.

@LostK

I, too, am inclined to believe that Ben is inherently good -- at least in his motives for the island.

WOW !! Let's see, Ben started off trying to manipulate things (of course), but Smokie put him in his place. I think that Locke is freakin' awesome in his new "awareness." The whispers have got to be "the others" and not smokie, b/c I don't think that you could outrun smokie. Let me digest a little more before I try to figure anything else out. Although I will say that Ben is the new Charles and Locke is the new Ben in that Charles felt that Ben took his position of power from him and has been trying to regain it, and now Ben feels that Locke has done the same thing to him so he is now trying to regain it.

The actor that played younger Charles, David S. Lee, was uncredited. I know his scene was short but surely we'll see him more so that we can find out why he was so upset about Richard saving Lil' Ben. So I'm just wondering, in TV/movie worlds, why are some actors credited and some not? Could the fact that he was uncredited mean something to the Losties?

@LostK: That would be "The Village"......I was so nervous during that whole movie, then the end was crap! LOL

The actor that played younger Charles, David S. Lee, was uncredited. I know his scene was short but surely we'll see him more so that we can find out why he was so upset about Richard saving Lil' Ben. So I'm just wondering, in TV/movie worlds, why are some actors credited and some not? Could the fact that he was uncredited mean something to the Losties?

" Ben remembers being healed there. That doesn't seem right. "
It doesn't especially since HP Ben didn't remember being shot!
And I think that Daniel glossed over a very very important point this episode seemed to be trying to make about Ben's character. Big bad Ben has a weekness for children! He took baby Alex instead of killing her and her mom (which btw was a heart wrenching scene for me not "annoying") and he let Penny and little Charlie live. Whether this new insight into our bug eyed friend is either flaw or weekness or redeeming quality is yet to be seen though.
I love the shift in power now with Ben being ordered by ghost Alex to follow Lock. I seriously doubt he will succeed, and I'm pretty sure this was a forshadowing to Ben's undoing.
It is interesting now that our 316'ers are adding new questions to the mix. What do you think lies in the shadow of the statue? I for one have no idea, unless it is the temple. Need an arial view via google earth of the island to be sure on its geography though and since that's not possible I will just wait and see.....

Regarding Ben being able to control smokey, Ben says he can summon the monster, not control it. He warns Sun outside that what's coming through the trees he can't control.

How much can Ben control??

" Ben remembers being healed there. That doesn't seem right. "
It doesn't especially since HP Ben didn't remember being shot!
And I think that Daniel glossed over a very very important point this episode seemed to be trying to make about Ben's character. Big bad Ben has a weekness for children! He took baby Alex instead of killing her and her mom (which btw was a heart wrenching scene for me not "annoying") and he let Penny and little Charlie live. Whether this new insight into our bug eyed friend is either flaw or weekness or redeeming quality is yet to be seen though.
I love the shift in power now with Ben being ordered by ghost Alex to follow Lock. I seriously doubt he will succeed, and I'm pretty sure this was a forshadowing to Ben's undoing.
It is interesting now that our 316'ers are adding new questions to the mix. What do you think lies in the shadow of the statue? I for one have no idea, unless it is the temple. Need an arial view via google earth of the island to be sure on its geography though and since that's not possible I will just wait and see.....

i thought they buried jughead in the swan station?
Sayid said the last time he saw that much concrete was Chernobyl.

" Ben remembers being healed there. That doesn't seem right. "

The Others probably told him that was were he was healed.

Agree with CAM. OThers told him that he was shot and healed at the temple.

@mamafae
You're right, Ben does have a weakness for children. It seems as if the island doesn't want children though.

A++. The writing was not "particularly good", it was OUTSTANDING!

Ben: I just didn't have time to talk you back into hanging yourself.......Best line of the night! Possibly the season!

sorry for the double posts! kept getting errors and no page refreshes were going through..

Girlfriend, girlfriend, that shit was hot!!! OMG yo, that may have been the best episode ever. I am in love with Captain Lapidus!!!

Agree with CAM. OThers told him that he was shot and healed at the temple.

Are we missing something here? What about the hieroglyphics in the temple? The half dog/half man facing Smokie is Anubus, an Egyptian God who shepherds (!) lost souls!! He also has something to do with truth.

HUGE clue!

I wonder what happened to young Charles in the past that made him the "chosen" one? We have now seen the miraculous things that happened to Ben and Locke to show their "specialness", I hope we get to see an episode with young Charles that will show us his "event."

Ben's soft spot for children and not being able to kill them/watch them die... could this be because as a child he was saved? Charles did tell a young Ben in that tent that he should be dead, but the island saved him.

It certainly did appear that we have been shown a redeeming quality for Ben. While he already seemed to be hesitating in killing Penny, Widmore's daughter, he was pushed over the edge upon seeing young Charlie, Penny's son.

@Karen, yes, the camera did pan and pause on that hieroglyphic which was clearly intentional for us to see that there is some kind of smoke monster and Egyptian god.

I think Widmore got kicked out right after the Purge I kinda felt bad for him. It must've been difficult to be the leader while watching the new leader being groomed.

@ fanolost - I don't think being born on the island is a prerequisite for being important and/or the leader: Ben and Locke weren't born on the island.

Alex looked creepy and I can't believe no comment on the heiroglyphics that seemed to show a standoff between smokey and the dog statue.

Ben and Locke were fantastic last night!

@Karen, yes, the camera did pan and pause on that hieroglyphic which was clearly intentional for us to see that there is some kind of smoke monster and Egyptian god.

'A' for the writers.
'F' for post production

The "This is your life, Ben" sequence was super cheesy. The flashback cut ins should have been black and white to blend with Smokie better. It felt like a cheesy Disney commercial.

@ Karen | April 9, 2009 08:43 AM

Last night on live chat on fb I said that it looked like Smokey and the foot statue were having a little conversation. I think the hieroglyphics tell the history of the island.

I also think that Jacob has something to do with controlling ole smokey.

Question about Ben's comment to Rousseau about the whispers. He told her to run away if she hears the whispers... what does that mean? The voices don't have a physical form, so they can't hurt her, can they? Or would they give her instructions that would get her harmed?

A+ episode! Loved all the Ben/Locke time. Weird that Locke came back RIGHT after all the Smokey/Ben drama. Heiroglyphs obviously show that Smokey has been around for a LONG time. If Alex was actually Smokey, why does it want Ben to follow Locke? SO glad that Penny/Desmond are ok! I think we will find out about the 4 toed statue very soon. As the best Lost episodes do...we have several questions answered while several new pop up to keep us guessing.

I agree with the disappointment regarding Ben's Smokey encounter.

I agree with an earlier post on the previous thread - Ben can read those glyphs. Why was the area below the temple new to Ben, or only the 'basement' area in which he found himself after falling through the floor?

The Village, Thanks.

The heirogliphix (sp?) definitly showed smokey and some dog.

Widmore and Richard did not seem to ever get along. Back to the old Widmore vs. Ben argument. I stay on Bens side. I think Widmore took charge and Ben was placed in charge.

I think Ben was a proxy leader to oust Widmore, who was never supposed to be the leader, and Locke is the real leader.

What happened to Ellie when Widmore was ousted?

Who is Penny's mom? I also believe there is more to that scene with Ben/Des and Penny.

I am not convinced Richard is not Jacob, but could be his son/spokesperson.

The Village, Thanks.

The heirogliphix (sp?) definitly showed smokey and some dog.

Widmore and Richard did not seem to ever get along. Back to the old Widmore vs. Ben argument. I stay on Bens side. I think Widmore took charge and Ben was placed in charge.

I think Ben was a proxy leader to oust Widmore, who was never supposed to be the leader, and Locke is the real leader.

What happened to Ellie when Widmore was ousted?

Who is Penny's mom? I also believe there is more to that scene with Ben/Des and Penny.

I am not convinced Richard is not Jacob, but could be his son/spokesperson.

Okay... I am rushing to post in between trying to work. Think I better focus on one at a time! Neither is 'coming out' fully formed. LOL

One last comment for now:

Desmond is hot! Loved the scene after he was shot, kicking some ass.

@ Karen- I agree, the hieroglyphics do show Anubus, egyptian god of death (I think guardian of the souls, need to google) with smokie.

When Ben talks about the temple, he seemed to have a deeper knowledge than just being told about it. He talked about the wall being built to keep "people like you" out and also how far away the actual temple was from the wall (about half a mile). Seems like the temple played a bigger role on a more regular basis for the others.

I'm very curious to find out how teenage Ethan ended up with young, baby-snatching Ben.

Also, didn't the original Dharma folks put up the electric fence to keep the smoke monster out? If that is correct, how did the signal to call him out end up behind the secret wall in Ben's house?

@ Michele - Ben taking Alex....was that the start of the Others taking children?

I loved last night's episode. I love how Locke had a confident smirk on his face the entire time which makes me wonder.. Now that he has been "resurrected", does he have more insight on things than he did before? I also loved that we discovered that Ben has a soft side for children..Not killing Danielle because of Alex and Penny 'cause of Charlie. Is he really the bad guy??? Why did he warn Danielle about the "whispers"? That is what I want to know. Has anyone been to the site that has decoded them and what are your thoughts? How significant are they? WHO are they? Again, so many questions..Great episode though..

@ good omen
I'm thnking that Ben saved baby Ethan before the purge, another incident of
Ben's soft spot for kids.

@Jenn3 - Ooh, interesting thought about the start of the Others taking the children. I have to think about that one.

Walt! Smokie seemed to conjure up Ghost Walt but Walt wasn't dead.

@jenn3 - I didn't mean 'born on...' it's the 'in-island' relationships - does that clear it up (you are referring to references of the kids and lineage?)

As soon as Ilana says "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" - immediatly thought they could possibly be from the WAY past of when the statue was in existence. They were able to return to the island because they're been there before. I think they are a much older troupe of islanders.

@ambrosia - Walt also has something special about him.

Speaking of which... a bit off topic, but I wonder if questions about Walt will ever be answered? The writers seemed to let go of that.

As soon as Ilana says "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" - immediatly thought they could possibly be from the WAY past of when the statue was in existence. They were able to return to the island because they've been there before. I think they are a much older troupe of islanders.

I agree completely with MAR. It was definitely one of my top 3 episodes.

@ fanolost - yes....sorry about that

it appears to me that island cycles the leadership position. widmore to ben to locke. remember a few seasons back, when the others were happy to see locke and they all believed he was the next leader. even ben consented (at least on the surface) to locke's replacement of himself as the leader. i dont think locke is some sort of prime leader, just the next one in the cycle. i think richard is, for lack of a better word, some sort of high priest. i dont necessarily mean that in the religious sense (although that may be true), but i do mean that he has power separate from that of the leader...sort of like a bishop and a king.

and im not sure i am buying that locke is the monster incarnate. i dont think that it re-animates dead bodies, but i think it does trigger memories and uses them to communicate with people. with ben last night, had we been an observer in the room, i have a feeling that we would not have been able to see alex.

ben may surprise us. he has learned first hand that when the island chooses its next leader, he would be wise to go along with it. im sure he will make a move against locke, but i think it will be when he is certain of victory.

and now we know about the impending war...looks like widmore has sent agents of his own to fight and kill for control of the island.

@Jenn3- Don't think it was a stand-off between Anubus and Smokie, but a relationship. Like smokie was giving something to Anubus, perhaps Smokie is the gatekeeper. I think that has been posted before, but it makes sense. Like Anubus doesn't take the lives, only guards the souls, and Smokie is the "enforcer."

widmore told locke that there was going to be a war and now the ajira people have a coffin full of guns..definately not a coincidence...i wonder who told them where to find guns?? so if the ajira people are one side who are on the other?? oh, ha...the others of course! this can only end in tears.

@ billy "and im not sure i am buying that locke is the monster incarnate. i dont think that it re-animates dead bodies, but i think it does trigger memories and uses them to communicate with people. with ben last night, had we been an observer in the room, i have a feeling that we would not have been able to see alex."

Kind of like what people were talking about last week re: jin sees ben's wound on opposite side....each character sees what they need/are supposed to see.

I know this might sound crazy but what if Des is really widmores son and he just raised penny as his own!!! Thats why he has been trying his hardest to stop them from being together because he knew Des would eventually end up on the island to correct his(widmore's) past mistakes.

David S. Lee was credited in the beginning of the episode.

I like to refer the the new Losties as Lost: The Next Generation.

Great episode that asks as many questions as it answers.

@ buttercup - intersting. I guess Widmore would also be pissed at the Others for his leaving too. it could not be teh 316ers/Widmore v. Locke and his people.

@ billy | April 9, 2009 09:00 AM

Kinda like Richard is King and Widmore/Ben/Locke are prime ministers?

i find it interesting that widmore (i presume) set up the war, when he thought it impossible for ben to return to the island.

Remember when the losties where flippin through time and found the canoes and were in the water and were being shot at? Now i'm pretty sure the people shooting at them were Alana and her crew with the guns. I think we got a glimpse of what is going to happens when our original 06 get back to present time.

maybe its not widmore v. ben and its more like widmore v. ben/others

remember when Locke told Widmore Richard told he he'd have to die, Widmore kinda disregarded like I don't know why he'd tell you that. You don't need to die, you have to fight in the war....

I think Widmore is also pissed at Richard an the Others and Ben

@Annika Thanks! I looked on imdb and it said "Uncredited" there.

Two words... GREAT EPISODE!

I'm not sure if anyone's ever brought this up...and I understand it's silly but...Does anyone get a Lord of The Rings vibe here?

Widmore, Ben, Locke are like Frodo and the island is their "my precious"

Richard being Sam Gamgee, just there to help them along the way?

Like I said, kinda silly but it makes me giggle a little with the way Ben, Widmore, and Locke are so obsessed with the island.

Ben has a soft spot for kids...

AWWW...

Unclogged drain? Water! If there's some water, there's some island voodoo.

Oh and I keep forgetting this...but did anyone catch Ben's face when Sun told them that a man named Christian told them to wait in Alex's room?

@JohnsMomLuvingLost

Yes! The people shooting in the canoes are/were likely Alaina's (sp?) team.

I thought it was interesting when Locke was leading Ben to the monster, Ben asks "How is it that you know these things Locke, do they just come to you when you wake up in the morning" and Locke answers "I dont know, I just know them"

yeah, i guess that works. but i dont think of richard as just a figurehead. i think he has more of a spiritual role. we know that ben is extremely dangerous, but richard openly sought after and groomed locke to replace ben as the leader. whatever richard's position, he is awfully secure in his role. he was also the one to heal and "convert" ben into an other. so id be happy calling him a witch doctor or a high priest just to show that he has power that is separate, but easily as a strong as that of the others leader.

@ Jenn3 | April 9, 2009 09:16 AM

Oh yeah! I noticed and his face said so much, he definitely knows who Christian is.

@PocoCoco I've never been a fan of comparing LOST to movies (ex. Star Wars, LOTR, etc.). To me it seems like the writers are intelligent enough with what they've already shown us that they are capable of coming up with their own unique idea and not just a new take on an old tale. I think you can find resemblances (sp?) to anything if you look hard enough and if you really want to see it. But, I could also be completely wrong.

@Jenn3 - good point! I totally forgot about that! Ben's facial expression upon hearing about Christian from Sun was very interesting, indeed!

I was thinking while watching, why does Ben have this reaction about Christian? Any thoughts??

Yes. I thought Ben definitely knew who Christian is. But, why was Ben so shocked that Christian would appear to Sun?

Where is Richard right now? Don't you think he should show up soon?

I think Richard is the guardian of the island/temple. He is and always will be there and is charge of recruiting and training leaders. Suprisingly Locke is older or the same age as Ben so who should follow Locke? Aaron?

I would love to see Richards back story and how did he and Widmore come together?

@ CAM and Michele - I don't know what it means but I instantly thought he knows Christian and is shcoked that he spoke to Sun and Lapidus. It kinda reminded me of the scene when Ben killed Locke and his face when Locke told him about Hawking.

Okay I'm confused...maybe someone can help.....

Ben "knows" about Locke from Richard....assumingly. But how does Widmore know about Locke? Widdy send Abbadon to Locke's hospital and then tried to make sure he did what he could to "get back to the island"....how did Widdy know Locke was "special"?
Does he have an informant that keeps him "up to date" on island happenings?

Could Ben's surprised expressions at he mention of Christian and Mrs. Hawking be a slow realization that the island is done with him as the leader? Why/how else could these outsiders, as Ben surely sees them, know this much about things he once thought only he knew?

Thanks for doing this diary Daniel, hope you feel better! I love Lost and I especially love it when the writers answer some questions and spell things out for me. Does anyone remember that when Locke fell into the well he asked Christian to help him up--and Christian said he couldn't--my thought was because he is a ghost. Well, Alex certainly grabbed Ben last night and she is supposed to be a ghost. I also haven't seen anyone touch Locke, have I? Of course normal ghost rules certainly don't apply to Lost. I think Locke has some knowledge but he also seemed sincerely shocked when things happen. Walt has been called "special" from the beginning and surely the writers won't just drop that. I think what lies in the shadow of the statue has to refer to the 4 toed thing.

@Jenn3 - Ben told Locke that he needed some information. After Ben obtained that information from Locke, Locke needed to die. And, of course, the classic line that "Ben didn't have time to talk him into killing himself again" (love that one!).

The Point - Does this mean Ben truly did not know about Mrs. Hawking?

@lash I completely agree with you. I also believe the writers are way to intelligent to compare/base it off anything else. I just thought it was a funny comparison. I can totally see Ben in a dark cave on the island petting it whispering "my precious!".

Thanks for doing this diary Daniel, hope you feel better! I love Lost and I especially love it when the writers answer some questions and spell things out for me. Does anyone remember that when Locke fell into the well he asked Christian to help him up--and Christian said he couldn't--my thought was because he is a ghost. Well, Alex certainly grabbed Ben last night and she is supposed to be a ghost. I also haven't seen anyone touch Locke, have I? Of course normal ghost rules certainly don't apply to Lost. I think Locke has some knowledge but he also seemed sincerely shocked when things happen. Walt has been called "special" from the beginning and surely the writers won't just drop that. I think what lies in the shadow of the statue has to refer to the 4 toed thing.

@LostwithinLost

Widmore was monitoring the exit point in Tasmania. Thats how he found Locke. Anyone that came through that portal was obviously of interest to him.

Lostwithlost - Locke spoke to Widmore in the 50s during the time shifts. Richard also went to visit Locke when Locke was a child and did that object picking test. Presumably, Richard told Widmore what had happened.

How was Widmore traveling back and forth to the mainland before the purge? Penny is definitly older than 15 (purge in 1992). Did the others have a way off the island or was Widmore stoweing away on the sub, or was Widmore in cahoots with the DI?

I believe that Ben knows about Christian and we will hopefully find out how soon?

I theorized earlier that Christian is Locke in a loop and had to orchestrate the O6 flight to get back on the island, meaning he was there before.

sorry, Tunisia, not Tasmania.

@ Michele - I think he did know, after Locke told him he repeated her name and said Are you sure? He would know who she was b/c (if we are to beieve that Ellie and Hawking are one in the same)he was on the island with her. I think maybe he didn't know she could get him back, but he knew she existed. IMO.

@billy, great observations and it would appear we are on the same side again...

I too have trouble believing Locke is Smokie and vice versa. Although I still have no answer as to how Locke is back and living again. Locke has accepted his role as Island savior or whatever, and is now even more in tune with the desires of the island.

Great friggin episode to say the least. Really had hoped for a better Smokie encounter with Ben, but willing to accept it as is.

@Jenn3 - It's weird, don't you think? I was not sure exactly what was up back in that original episode when Ben killed Locke. He did so suddenly after hearing John mention Hawking. But surely Ben had to already know about Hawking, so what was it about John mentioning Hawking that concerned Ben?

Of course, Ben does lie at times, but he said in this episode that he needed to elicit some information from John before John could kill himself. Could that information be not who Hawking was, but rather whether John has knowledge of hawking?

I'm not sure if it's a big deal... but that's what is sticking in my mind about it.

Ghost Alex isn't the only John Locke fan! So glad my man is back in full force, and the scenes between he and Ben were priceless. Harkens back to "The Man From Tallahassee." This will be a classic episode for sure. And I did think Smokie was awfully kind, but maybe he knows that having to submit to John is worse than death for Ben.

@ Michele - I think we are stuck in another chicken or the egg conversation.

Good points. My initial reaction was Ben knew Hawking existed, but didn't know she could get him back to the island and was surprised that Locke knew of her.

I know there are other instances where Ben made a similar face as he did last night when Sun mentioned Christian and we knew it was him pretending not to know, but for a split second wasn't able to cover his surprise that someone else knew,...but of course I can't think of it right now.

And I still get hung up on why if it was so important for the O6 to have stayed on the island, why did Richard let them go? He is the one that said if they save Ben, they could have the helicopter and leave.

Maybe the writers are using the tale of Cthulhu in their storytelling... "They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape...but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them."

and ghost Christian held baby Aaron, the night Claire disappeared with him.

Well, the loose end of Kate seeing a horse a year or two back is tied up. And, as always, the scenes between Ben and Locke are the best. Great episode and great review Daniel- especially the young Russell Crow reference. Now I'm going to sit back and enjoy all the interpretations and theories other posters are so good at. However, I still miss and worry about Rose and Bernard and, of course, Vincent the wonder dog.

One more comment - Take care Daniel and get well soon.

OK so Anubis in ancient Egypt is associated with the dead and mummification. He is portrayed with the head of a jackal and is often seen carrying a flail in one hand, and an ankh down at his side in the other. Like the STATUE. Dogs have 4 toes, so does the STATUE. Anubis also performed the measurement (the weighing of the heart) that determined the worthiness of a soul to enter the realm of the dead. Just like Ol' Smokey? Later on in Egypt his role became that of the patron of lost souls (and orphans)

@Hegner Holy crap! I never even stopped to consider that the four-toed statue was anything other than a man. *golf clap*

Ben's weakness isn't necessarily for children but for MOTHERS. He missed his own so badly and knew his relationship with his dad would have been completely different if his mom hadn't died. While I agree that Ben has a soft spot for kids, he has a softer one for moms. He could have killed Danielle when he took Alex, but she was a mom.

It also makes sense that Ben now remembers being "healed" at the temple, much the same way that Desmond had a new memory after speaking to Farraday at the doorway and awakening with his mission to find Eloise.

As it is Anubis in the temple speaking to the smoke monster surrounded by hieroglyphics, snakes and fish, it would make sense that the statue is also Anubis. It appears that the temple itself is dedicated to the worship of Anubis, leading to the logical (if there is any logic to LOST) conclusion that it is the island that is the gateway to the other side, containing magical healing properties for those it deems worthy or those for whom there is a purpose.

Just ramdom thoughts - all of this could change immediately upon a new episode blowing this out of the water

:)

OK so Anubis in ancient Egypt is associated with the dead and mummification. He is portrayed with the head of a jackal and is often seen carrying a flail in one hand, and an ankh down at his side in the other. Like the STATUE. Dogs have 4 toes, so does the STATUE. Anubis also performed the measurement (the weighing of the heart) that determined the worthiness of a soul to enter the realm of the dead. Just like Ol' Smokey? Later on in Egypt his role became that of the patron of lost souls (and orphans)

@Jenn3 - I've no idea on that one. I'm stumped by it, too.

OK so Anubis in ancient Egypt is associated with the dead and mummification. He is portrayed with the head of a jackal and is often seen carrying a flail in one hand, and an ankh down at his side in the other. Like the STATUE. Dogs have 4 toes, so does the STATUE. Anubis also performed the measurement (the weighing of the heart) that determined the worthiness of a soul to enter the realm of the dead. Just like Ol' Smokey? Later on in Egypt his role became that of the patron of lost souls (and orphans)

Kim J - interesting distinction there mom weakness or kid weakness. Didn't think about it being about a mom, but that makes sense.

Could Locke be Jacob? If he's alive back on the island he has to be something very important. I loved this episode but I love all episodes with a lot of Locke and Ben!

@KimJ - I agree with your thoughts on Ben's softness toward mothers. Good observation. He definitely has mommy issues!

I'm outta here for a while. I REALLY have to get some work done! Have fun! ;-) I am eager to come back later and catch up on all the comments. By then... there are likely to be many well formulated theories/observations.

@billy:

I totally get what you are saying - he is like the king but with actual power and responsibilities. Richard seems to me to be the only "native" on the island. He is the only one not aging or aging REALLY slowly. Maybe he's a vampire :) j/k

I think that Christian and Locke are experiencing the same phenomenon which I can't quite put my finger on yet. But they are living and breathing on the island and it would seem they both are serving a purpose on the island.

I also think that the other passengers on 316 were put on the plane by Widmore. If the guy can fake a plane crash at the bottom of the ocean, he can fill a plane with his own people. I think the war he is waging with these passengers is against the island and not Ben since he doesn't think Ben can go back.

Is it possible that Richard is one of the priests of the temple? If the egyptian angle is valid, Richard certainly has the right coloring for a high egyptian priest, and as he doesn't seem to age, must be the original priest installed along with the temple. But as the priest only, he has no real authority over whomever the leader is of the Others. He is an observer and one who can supply access to Jacob for the leader - too many swirls in my head right now - but I can say that if Richard wants to start a local chapter of the temple here, I would be happy to assist him in any temple duties!

LOVED IT. A+ I think it was my favorite episode so far. I loved the Ben/Locke scenes - they were great together. And Locke was so calm/knowing, a nice vibe. Missed seeing him lately.

I have the feeling they keeping holding their punches this season (like in season 3)

nothing drastic with penny or ben...

What I find interesting is that whole line from Aliana about "what lies at the foot of the statue?" I kinda went WTF?!! I thought they weren't even on the island with the statue, so how do they even know about it? Very bizarre all of the sudden. Interesting.
Best line of the night: "consider that your apology" -- Ben

I, too, think there is a lot more to the Des/Penny thing. He went into the water where the gun was - no telling how deep the water was for retrieving. I still think he tried to kill Penny and the bullet hit Charlie. I just don't see another reason why he would ask for Des's forgiveness. I hate to think of any harm to this trio but something has to spur Des to return to the Island.

@Kim J
Ben doesn't "remember" being taken to the temple. He just says he was taken to the temple. That's a pretty important distinction.

@fireflyyb
She was sent by Widmore, or another competing group. She claimed to be working for the family of someone Sayid killed for Ben, so Widmore makes the most sense.

@K.Paige
Ben shot Desmond. I think that's a good enough reason for an apology.

Sorry if this has already been asked, but I haven't had time to read through all the comments yet. I didn't understand Ben's explanation as to why he killed Locke instead of letting him kill himself?! Either way, the Island would have still brought him back to life, no?

I thought this episode was excellant and Daniel's review is awesome. Made me laugh out loud a few times.

I don't think that Alana and her group are with Widmore. I think Widmore is still on the Island's side, and only really against Ben who he doesn't think can get back. I don't think Widmore has anything against Richard. I think Alana's group maybe some other entity that is trying to get control of the island for some other reason, greed maybe. Alana does not seem to be on Locke's side or know anything about him. I think if she were working for Widmore she would know about Locke. What do you all think?

I am stuck on the question, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"
To me it seemed a riddle more than a question.

Doing a quick search, I came across the wikipedia entry for Ozymandias, as well as a competing sonnet by Shelley's friend Horace Smith (possibly Dharma Horace's namesake), that refers to a one legged statue. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias).

I also found that there is an Eqpytian story about a man in a hunting party that fell asleep in the shadow of a statue and dreamed that if he helped uncover the statue, he would be made the next leader(http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html).

BEST EPISODE OF THE SEASON AND BEST RECAP OF THE SEASON!!!!

@K. Paige...I am certainly hoping that Penny and/or Charlie were not killed. Hopefully, Ben extended that apology meant for Des for even making the attempt - and could also be apologetic for shooting Des. And Des will no doubt be hell bent on fully opening up another can of whoop ass on Ben if their paths cross. That being said, I am still reminded of Ellie's words to Des that the island was not finished with him yet. So...there may be more to what happened on that dock than we saw.

I've been wondering if HOW a person dies has anything to do with if they can "come back." It seems like only people who died because of an outside influence (strangled, shot, overdose, drowning, etc.) can be shown to other people. I could be reaching here....

We know ben likes children. as the orginal plane crahsed, ben had all the kids "kidnapped" and taken from the 06's camp. but don't you think it has to do with they can't have kids?

@ Good Omen - WHOA! very interesting.

70% of your writing is just quotes from the episode...LAME

@Good Omen...I am duly convinced that this show has perhaps the most wildly eclectic and intelligent fan base ever assembled. Very interesting find!!!

@ MicheleD - it even has to Michele's with one l as fans!

I don't think Richard is a high priest. I think Richard is a god.

And I don't think Caesar is dead. I think he's an other, like the rest of his crew. Part of a team of off-island others loyal to Widmore that have returned to fight the coming war.

Wow spot on review Daniel. I too agreed with the bad casting decision of young widmore- he was not believeable.

I loved the "didn't have time to talk you into killing yourself" line!

One BIG answer. Whidmore is a bad guy! Like I said to my friend I wonder why we ever doubted it - he was a jerk the first time we saw him, the second, the third, etc. What we did was doubt Ben who has turned out to be quite the complex character.

Notice he wasn't forgiven, Alex surely didn't forgive him, he was just allowed to live.

I will say I didn't like the set design. Not as belieable as the hatch.

OK just a real quick theory. I think the o6 are still on the island somewhere but thirty years older. I think that is what Christian was talking about when he told Sun that she would see her husband again. Maybe they are in the shadow of the statue. Somewhere underground like where Ben was when he was getting judged.
Hmmm...now I'm just thinking while I type but maybe they are hiding out somewhere because they knew that Ben was going to "purge" the DI so they got all that believed their story and got the hell out of there. Or maybe Richard showed them where they would be safe since he knew they weren't really apart of DI. Well..done with the rambles:) Oh and WHERE'S FARADAY!!

@Jenn3 - indeed it is quite interesting to see a set of us assembled here all at once!! I think there are at least three of us!

@Michele D

I have found myself judging people on this basis. Anyone that tells me that LOST is stupid I just assume that means they're not as smart as the rest of us. Poor guys! haha

I initially thought Ben told Sun to tell Des he is sorry right before he went to face the Smoke Monster was his last ditch effort for mercy from the smoke monster. Like, a convicted felon apologising to the victims right before sentancing.

why is everyone referring to posts that don't seem to be here (ssarahbadera)? what happened?

@Good Omen, I am with you on it seeming more like a riddle then a question. What lies in the shadow of the statue?

I instantly thought of the riddle about the Snowman the Kelvin/Desmond asked about. What was it.. What did one snow man to say to the other? Not sure if this is some kind of code or what...

@Lash...LOL! But, true! :-)

in regards to the Airja group with guns.. makes sense when Walt said "i see you in a suit and peopole all around you trying to hurt you." Could he be talking about Ilana 's group? I hope they don't just "get rid" of Walt.. to special too important.

im also starting to think that Whitmore and Ellie purposely told Des not be be with Penny and not to marry her? They set the motion of events to make him find the island, turn the key at the swan station to become "special" and become Farrday's constant, and ultimatly helps Charlie unblock the signal for Whitmore's people to find the island. I mean in 96 when Des visited Whitmore at the auction (when Whitmore purcased the 1st mates diary of the black rock) I think Whitmore purposly left the water running in the bathroom sink knowing (b/c he knew about Farraday's experiments) that Des would have his mind travel through time, adn then the water overflowing would bring him back, so he would remember traveling back and forth.

Also Smokie got me thinking. in Stargate the alien's (that have pyrimids and hyrogphics and masks of "egytpain" gods, but they look human)come to Earth and end up inhabiting peoples bodies to live forever, and make human's slaves. So could that be like Richard and Co? He always seems to let other people ultimatly decide what to do : giving kate and juliet a choice about giving Ben to them. Letting young Locke pick those items, giving Locke the info about Sawyer to kill his father). Maybe b/c Richard is so "special" he can't force people, it has to be their free will, and ultimatly they will side with him? Also Smokie seems to be able to become the people "you have the most regrets about" like Eko's bro, Alex, and Christain on the beach when jack saw him, maybe Claire for Kate?

Also, we are seeing 2 sides to the story. This whole time we were lead to believe Ben is an evil person kicking Whitmore out of the island, killing "at random".. now, seems like Whitmore is the jerk. I've always liked Ben, he does what has to be done and doesn't pussy foot around it, except for the children part, which is admirable

I feel Lost with the comments - half seem to be missing. I have lots of work today too so I guess you'll have to do without me (don't be too happy everyone)

I'm having technical difficulties, my posts aren't going through (this is my last attempt) and I seem to be missing half the comments above and I fell... Lost. Oh well got lots of work to do today anyway, have fun with out me (but don't throw a party I do have SOME feelings :)

@ glee - I think people are referring to some of the posts under last weeks episode... Many of us can't wait and are impatient. :)

I too think the scene with Ben and smoke monster fell flat the rest of the episode was great

great episode.

Locke and Christian seem to be different than the smokie mind tricks. Locke is alive and Ben thinks he's alive. So he must be alive and not a smokie mind trick. Maybe Ben hearing about Christian from Sun just opened his eyes to the fact that Locke and Christian have been communicating. I'm thinking smokie can take images from people's minds or something. How else would it know to show Kate the horse, or to always have the numbers following Hurley. Or taller Ghost Walt when Walt is still alive. I'm so close to checking myself into Santa Rosa, which may be where Faraday is at this point.

This episode almost brought me to tears twice. When Ben was in the temple and the smoke monster was showing him his life with Alex and when Ben almost shot Penny.

I agree with what someone said earlier about Ben having compassion for children. I think Richard was stunned when Ben brought back baby Alex, because he didn't expect Ben to be a compassionate person after the whole Temple Healing thing.

I haven't read all the posts yet, but I want to mention that I didn't understand Bens initial reation when he was looking at the wall carvings. So, If Daniel's right, maybe Ben DID RECOGNIZE that he'd been there before.

I think my favorite moments were:
Locke waving from outside the house to Sun.

Ben looking at the photograph of the Losties with the Dharma crew.

Ben shooting Ceasar. Sorry, but that was an awesome apology.

POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR NEXT WEEK:
OH, and without really giving any spoilers, I just want to mention that next weeks previews showed Miles talking with Dr. Marvn and I could have sworn he says to Miles: "You were supposed to come alone" or something...
I think next weeks episode looks INCREDIBLE cause it's Miles centered and he talks to someone in a body bag or something.

THIS WAS MY 2ND FAVORITE EPISODE TO DATE.

I haven't read all of the comments yet, but I wanted to point this out. Did anyone else that the way that Locke is dressed puts him on the same level as Ben episode. By the end Ben is all dirty and bruised and Locke is still fresh and clean- very unlike Locke was before he left the island. Showcasing Locke is indeed the one in power. This episode was awesome- also because there was no Jack and Kate.

Why is Jacob and Island spoken in the same manner. Is Jacob just an acronym for JACOB=JustAComputerOperatingBrain? I wonder.

I’ve been a loyal fan of Lost and a reader of this site for years, but I’ve never posted. Since I enjoy reading the posts, I wanted to join in on the discussions.

Last night’s episode was great. We learned so many things. I enjoyed every conversation John and Ben had. John seemed a little too calm talking to Ben, considering Ben tried to kill him. Did anyone else think so?

I for some reason laughed out loud when Ben was walking around so chipper and happy and he said “Have a nice day,” to the folks on the beach. Michael Emerson is a great actor. He (as well as the show) deserved an Emmy nod last year. Hopefully he’ll be nominated this year. As well as the show!

Great episode, but I was left with so many questions. We learned that Charles Widmore fathered Penny with a woman off the island. My thoughts are:

Who is Penny’s mom?

Is Penny’s mom still alive? Are they (Penny and mom) on good terms?

What is Elli and Charles Widmore’s Relationship?

Why did Elli leave the island? She didn’t leave with Widmore, did she leave on her own?

How did Ethan join Ben? Is this why Ethan was not perished when Ben took over? But his dad (Horace) was?

I assume that Ben hasn’t returned to DI land “yet” after his recovery. I wonder when he does return to DI do they welcome him home? Do they question where he’s been all these years? Will Roger be happy to see his son after all these years? I can’t wait for the upcoming episodes.

I’m lost on something. When John asked Ben why did they (the hostiles / others) move to the houses, did John get an answer from Ben? (My phone rang Duh!) And I missed what was said.

One last comment: While I missed seeing the Oceanic 6 this week, I was well satisfied with Richard, Ben, Locke and Sun. I feel that whenever Richard and/or Ben are in a scene, the scene is brilliant and we learn a little more.

I'm sorry if someone else said this already...but did anyone else catch when Ben and Locke were having their conversation about Ben killing him that Ben mentioned something about had Locke not given him the information he needed before he died that Ben would've died right along with him? Then that's where he said the good line about talking him into hanging himself. Thoughts?

Personally I dont think Ellie ever really leaves the island. I think she transports back and forth similar to the way Ben did. Remember back in the episode where I believe Juliet kills an other so Kate and Sawyer can escape. A woman comes who has white hair and looks very similar to Hawkins to see if Juliet is able to stay with the others. They never really went into who this woman is. I believe this woman is Ellie Hawkins and that she is the true leader of the others.

I wonder why Richard is the only one who doesnt age

@johnsmomluvinlost-
I know exactly who you are talking about and which episode. I just watched it recently on Sci-Fi...
To me, she looks more like the woman at the butcher shop that kept Locke's body than Ellie. I dont remember the name used for either in either episode but I can remember the face.

@Goldilocks

I'm beginning to think it's purely to screw with our minds. haha

I will be having conversations with friends about non-LOST topics and if there's ever a lull in the conversation, I always interject with "Yes, but why doesn't Richard age?"

LinJoeoo - according to lospedia this is what Ben said BEN: You had critical information that would've died with you.

sunshine- he didn't get an answer. Here is the conversation:
LOCKE: So whose idea was it to move into these houses?

BEN: Excuse me?

LOCKE: Well, your people were living in the jungle. And then after you murdered the DHARMA folk, you relocated here. I just wondered if it was your idea.

BEN: Do you disapprove, John?

LOCKE: It just doesn't seem like something the Island would want.

BEN: You don't have the first idea what this Island wants.

LOCKE: Are you sure about that?

I was wrong...the woman who let Juliet live was named Isabel. Anyone know what the woman's name was that kept Locke's body at the butcher shop?

It was Jill

@Jenn3, MicheleD, Lash - in total agreement with you. Lost definitely attracts an intelligent fan base! Those who don't get it... well...

@glee - ssarah b. was posting under last week's blog - as we are up way before LAers...

So often on Thursday's some items answer from posts from the previous blog - a little confusing but y'all might want to read the last of last week's posts to see if there's anything interesting.

@kokola - Locke is looking verra Christian these days...

Ben is getting all beat up - and trying to keep control - and I think we'll see more of what happened with Des and Penny...

The Egyptian theme continues to fit in well with the cycle theory that the 'ancients' reuse bodies/souls on the island.

The statue's face will be Vincent. I know we went on and on about it a few blogs ago - but Vincent reigns supreme **SPOILER ALERT*** (from what we know) and it makes sense. The island wouldn't let him perish (if the island has an inkling of Egyptian afterlife practices).

Thanks Jenn3...I think I am trying to take too much in and getting it all confused.
@johnsmomluvinlost-
the woman was Isabel and she is now considered dead according to lostpedia, the woman who kept the body of Locke was named Jill. Looking at the pictures I dont think there's any way either of them could be/was Ellie.

No problem LinJoeoo! - I get confused all the time myself. THats why this blog is so great b/c whatever I might have forgotten or am confused about someone else remembers or isn't confused.

@johnsmom... Eloise does leave since she's in LA... and before Locke blows up the sub - any of the Others, and before that, DI, had access to leave the island. And some did.

I'd need to research to see the white-haired woman.

I'm sorry you have the flu, Daniel, but I thought it made you much funnier. I cracked up half a dozen times (not the least of which about the Unusuals)! And I am starting the give the Egyptian theme more than a passing thought - but if a Stargate shows up, I'm gonna be pissed.

Think, maybe, OTHERS let Ethan live because he was only baby the island let live?
Random thought, still loving that Richard is the only one who doesn't age!!! Another reason producers have to end show before the actor starts needing botox!!! LOL!
Also think the NEW OTHERS are Whidmores army and that is the war Ben has been talking about!!!!

@sunshine..
I don't think Ben was with the others for years before his return to the DI. Was there something specific that I may have missed that gave you that idea?

@fanolost- I'm pretty sure the white haired woman johnsmom is referring to is Isabel. According to lostpedia, she's dead. The episode she appeared in was "Stranger in a Strange Land."

@ SamIAm | April 9, 2009 08:48 AM

I think Ben just told Rouseau to run away from the whispers as a way of scaring her and in a sense, keeping her under control.

Isn't the Temple where all the others went when the freighter peeps came? What happened to all of them? I guess since neither story line is in that time frame anymore we won't see them. Did that make sense??

Humble yourself before your new lord, John Locke. ''I know you’re already planning to kill him again,'' Alex seethed. ''You will listen to every word he says and you will follow his every order.''

Great episode, except the end with Ben and Smokey, I didn't know you brought out the monster by flushing the toilet. Lots of questions answered, very happy Des and Penny are ok, except for being shot. I wonder if the others on the plane were put there by Widmore or something happened that changed them while Lapidus was on the main island. Oh, what is this show, "The Unusuals" you speak of? I have seen so many promos for it that I thought Michael was back on the island.

@linjoeoo

Thanks for clearing that up. It seems like they use actors and actresses that look similar maybe to throw us off. I guess thats what makes "Lost", Lost.

Don't you think Locke has a different demeanor than before? He seems to be very calm and focussed (and full of good lines..thanks Lost writers) I think there must be something to him being in an altered state...perhaps undead.

oops that was me

@Mark

LMAO "didn't know you brought out the monster by flushing the toilet"

@johnsmomluvinlost-
no problem. I'm glad you brought it up, it then made me wonder if they all 3 werent the same. I had to get to the bottom of it. I'm still worried about Des and Penny- only because Ben said to tell Desmond he was sorry if Smokie killed him. Sorry for shooting him, or sorry for more? There has to be more to that story that we have yet to see.
I also thought we'd see more of Caesar than that... he cant be gone yet.

I think Locke's different demeanor has to do with his being more enlightened regarding the island. Before he was left to blindly follow the lead of others, not knowing why... not knowing a lot of things. Now, it appears Ben is in that disconcerting state. Ben no longer has the confident air all the time. Now Locke does.

@ Kim J 09:50 AM
I totally agree with you...I think that Ben has a thing about mothers. His own mother died giving birth to him and he probably missed her terribly and saw how miserable it made his father. So he can't kill a mother because it would put that child in the same position that he was in.

Mark -Oh, what is this show, "The Unusuals" you speak of? I have seen so many promos for it that I thought Michael was back on the island.

LMAOROTF

I am puzzled about something, why did Aliana question Lapidus about the shadow at the base of the statue. Why does she think he would know, does she know he has been on the island before? I don't think so. Does the shadow have something to do with Lapidus?

@ ritaislos - I think that a group of people were on 316 to fight in the war but maybe they didn't necessarily know who each other were and that was the code. Or maybe the 316ers banded together after Ben killed Cesar and have a secret code among each other, but judging from her 180 attitude adjustment, I think it might be the first option.

Someone mentioned earlier about the episode where Widmore left the water on in the bathroom for Des to find, which caused him to time-travel....it's really a stretch, but the water thing, is it any connection to "flushing the toilet" (HA!) to summon Smokey? Any thoughts? No? I'm crazy? K, just checking... :)

Someone mentioned earlier about the episode where Widmore left the water on in the bathroom for Des to find, which caused him to time-travel....it's really a stretch, but the water thing, is it any connection to "flushing the toilet" (HA!) to summon Smokey? Any thoughts? No? I'm crazy? K, just checking... :)

@AZWildcat - not only Widmore, but do you remember when Des made the phone call when he was a soldier - it was pouring (typical scottish weather...) - that was when he was on the copter and floating between present and past...

And the dude is going solo around the world in a sailboat?

Best Episode of the Series so far, A lot of theories were proven true tonight that we've been talking about for a while.

Statue- Rah for sure
Hyrogliphs- Look Egyptian or Mesopatamian Cuneaform

I think now that The show's real theme is that our world in contained inside a black hole, and that Smokey and the Hole where Ben drained the water have something to do with a Worm Hole. My Question is If the exit of the worm hole is in Tunisia then What is the ode to Ancient Iraq or Egypt Are there other Worm holes the Ancients knew about? or is this the one they found and they were always looking for others.

Best Line of the episode- "What lies beneath the shadow of the statue?"

Best Scene- Blood pouring out of Ben as he drifts underwater, Go Desmond!

So now I predict we will see Hawking, Farraday, Widemore, and Desmond return to the Island or at least have an awkward meeting where they discuss returning........

@thomas - some are thinking the statue could still be Anubis - 4-toes and all... just theorizing - and because Anubis was seen in this epi.

Sorry you are sick Daniel, I hope you get over it soon! About "The Unusuals". Did anyone watch it? It was pretty good.

I thought this epi was great and I can't wait to see Miles talk to dead people next week!

@fanolost

I meant Anubis, But I think the mural above smokey's sewer grate was Rah and Anubis, I am going to have to watch it all over again now and try to look closer, Also where the Hell did Alex come form and return too, I was suprised that Ben did not follow into the shadows....

When Alex told Ben to swear his loyalty to Locke, Ben said something which I couldn't make out. It sounded like he mentioned Sawyer. Did anyone catch what he said?

FYI - the new Lost Untangled is up. It starts with a quick review of the previous week's episode, but the new Untangled for Dead is Dead follows.

I agree that being Widmore minions seems like a good theory for Aliana and her gang, but I immediately thought they were somehow "infected" like the french shipwreckers with Rousseau. She just seemed a little manic and the guy behind her seemed alot manic at the violence of it all.

Loved the comment about "summoning the smoke monster by flushing the toilet"...my son said the exact same thing!

Why did Ben feel the need to steal the baby? Was he protecting Rousseau and Alex from Widmore since it was Widmore who sent Ben and Ethan to kill her?

"I'll be seeing you again, boy." Feels like I heard that before in Peter Pan? Pirates of the Caribbean? I can't place it, but I've heard it!

Don't forget that Ben had more than just a black eye when he met everyone on the plane. His arm was in a sling, he had scratches all over his face, Desmond only hit him a few times...that story isn't over. I think Widmore sent some men to catch up with Ben after the Penny/Desmond/Ben interaction.

More and more it seems like killing someone is being used as a test to be a leader...at least by the on the way out leader to the new leader.

lostagain - someone else thought the same thing, I think it was fanolost. We talked about it this morning under the other post. He said I swear, not Sawyer.

Memory lapse: What happened to the guy that Des replaced in the hatch?

@lostagain - I heard 'sawyer' too - but everyone here says Ben said to swear allegiance to Locke.

But I really, really thought there was a sawyer in there (swear is close, but the 'y' is distinctive).

@thomas - I want the statue to be Vincent... hee

And we're thinking Monstah takes the energies of 'dead' folk - and does with them what it may. Or the ancients that I believe started, and are still, on island do something to the departed and resurrect their souls...

Ra in Greek is Horus

Horace???? Also interesting Anubis and Ra sometimes are depicted holding the symbol Paul wore that Amy has in here Dresser and Infuriated Horace when he found it.....

Do you think the new castaways (flight 316er's) were "infected" by Smokie - making them crazy/changed/whatever like what happened with Danielle's group? Maybe that's why they are acting so strange.

@ Lash - Desmond killed Kelvin when he followed him out of the hatch and found him getting ready to take Desmond's sailboat.

@Lash - Kelvin (aka KURGAN), um, doesn't he die at the hands of Des?

Yep, did I ever forget that Des is also a murderer? Is there no one on the island without blood stains?

@ fanolost ....Vincent? and maybe Rose, but I think even Bernard killed some Others

@txjenn1 - I think the newbies from Ajira are the 'new' Hostiles (since the Hostiles became the Others). And the cycle continues...

@jenn3 - but we don't know what Vincent has been up to, what he's had to fight for...

Rose and Bernard. Adam and Eve. Monstah. Entwined in life, entwined in death...

Also and I hope they show up again soon

Who thinks Rose and Bernard will meet up with Lockes Crew in the present,
And who thinks they will meet up with Sawyer and friends in the Past??

Holy Crap, I should sell that Idea to JJ "Sawyer and Friends" a campy 70's era sitcom on a Mythical Island....

@ fanolost - LOL!

The lostpedia transcript for this episode says that Ben didn't say Sawyer.

Michele - I always forget about hte Untangled eps. I bet the one for last night was hysterical.

@ shell and fanolost
Thank you! For some reason it still doesn't ring a bell, but I believe you. ;)

Someone refresh my memory please...during Locke & Widmore's coversation Widmore asked John if Ben had tricked him into turning the wheel like he had tricked Widemore years earlier...right? Or did we just assume he turned the wheel to get off the island & couldn't go back. Or maybe the trickery part was telling Charles that he broke the rules by leaving the island reg & having a daughter w/ an outsider...but we know that Ben left a good bit (b/c of all those passports he had & being a prefered guest @ the hotel in Tunisia) & Tom had a separate life off the island w/ a gay lover... Anyway I do see history repeating itself & John will have to banish Ben...or kill him...

i thought it was interesting when ben told sun to go inside the house because he couldn't control what was going to come out of the woods, and then locke came out of the woods....

I had missed the entire month of March and last weeks episodes, had a family crisis. I watched online to catch up and was so happy that last night was as good as it was. I give it an A definitely.

@ amy - here is the transcript from lostpedia from that scene. Its funny how we read into what they say....
WIDMORE: Well, that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, as he did with me. I was their leader.

LOCKE: The Others?

WIDMORE: They're not the "Others" to me. They're my people. We protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled... by him... just as you were.

LOCKE: No. Ben wasn't even there when I left. He was already gone. I--I... I wasn't exiled. I... chose to leave

definitely an A episode! Great lines and excellent scenes - with the exception of the great flush lol and a lame smoke monster.
I wondered if the heiroglyphics of smokie and Anubis showed a "friendship" or that smokie destroyed the statue. Do you think Vincent is guarding the foot statue lol?

I had a very dumb and annoying dream about Lost last night I feel compelled to share (not to be annoying, but just cuz). Dreamt that the Island was an alien spacecraft/vessel/station. The Others were all members of the alien species or race. They brought in new members to convert and occupy their bodies, like the whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers " thing. The "war coming up" was a coupe to take over the world from us humans. Like "War Of the Worlds". Apparently I dreamt some kind of blending of sci-fi movies, not too original of me. Anyway, I hope this isn't going to happen to Lost!

Thanks Jenn3 I went back to ABC.com but I couldn't replay that episode...didn't even think about the transcripts!...But he did say he was fooled into leaving...the only problem I have w/ that is apparently the rest of the others were in agreement that Charles needed to go...he was handcuffed & escorted by security...

It seems so ODD that to call smokey you flush a drain!!

In the Egyptian Book of the Dead the recently deceased must face Anubus and be judged for his actions in life, if he fails his soul is devoured by a monster and if he passes moves on to the afterlife. Seems a little bit like what Ben went through with ol Smokie.Not sure if this is relevant but I found the similarity interesting. Although in the Book of the dead the monster is part hippo and crocodile so maybe it just plays on the idea, or I am completly off base which is a good possibilty

My son's shower won't drain. Think Smokey is stuck? lol

Isn't the "Temple" or the Smoke Monster what lies in the "shadow of the statue"? When Sawyer and Miles were flipped back to ancient times for less than a minute and saw that huge statue (only the foot now remains?) they were standing at the entrance where Ben went underground, the French man lost his arm and Danielle's team then got 'infected' as she says. Maybe the new Losties are now infected as well? The idea that they all work for Widmore is interesting...

@ Anonymous | April 9, 2009 01:39 PM

They were standing by the well which is where the orchid and the big wheel are.

I don't have a TV and must wait until today to watch. So, I agree, great episode!! Daniel may be sick, but he's back in funny writing form. I laughed out loud a few times. Thank you Daniel!

This is the first time Ben looked like he was going to shit himself. And Locke is serene and confident, like some sort of demi god. I wonder if Locke can shift time to get everyone back to their proper locations. He may take Sun back to Gin, but I have a feeling he will then lead Sawyer and the rest back to present time.

Jacob must be a "being" or "essence" who inhabits other bodies. I don't believe he has a physical body. Richard, on the other hand, is another story.

Man, I have been reading all day but not contributing. I think we are on to something here with the Egyptian thing and I am proud that many on here caught onto that after a quick glimpse of the back of the 4 toed statue! Kudos to all!

I personally think that Smokey and the statue were having a nice conversation in that hieroglyphic and that they are a huge part of the ancient history of the island... as does Richard.

I am so curious to find out how exactly Jin and Sun are reunited! Also, I don't think the dock scene with Ben/Desmond/Penny is over quite yet... but I hope for the best.

@CAM

yes, richard is definitely not subservient to the leader of the others, but at the same time does let the leader make most of the decisions. he also plays a key role in finding and selecting candidates for succession, so he must operate outside of that command chain. someone suggested that he is a god, but idk about that. cant argue it either way, but it kinda feels a little weak to me.

you mentioned richard being the only native...i have to disagree there, because there seem to be a lot of others that we havent met. surely some, most, of them are natives since we have seen how difficult it is for them to accept outsiders in their group...however, they cant all be the immortal type like richard. in that sense, he probably is exceptional.

about widmore's war...i currently believe that he has designed the war and those are his people sent in to start it. it makes me wonder if he was setting up locke to take the fall. with no current leader on the island, there would be no one to attack except richard and i have a feeling that wouldnt go down so well. just guessing here.

i loved this week's episode. i definitely think the best line was "what's about to come out of that jungle is something that i can't control" followed by Locke making his entrance. i too am wondering what the heck is up with the survivors from the plane acting crazy. what lies in the shadow of the statue? i would've said "Ben, if he's standing next to it and talking." :) also-many people have commented about Desmond fighting off Ben despite having a bullet wound. i was under the impression that the bullet hit the bag of groceries that he was carrying, and that the momentum knocked him backwards onto the ground. was he actually shot in the chest?

@ardendweller
I got the same impression about Desi. It appeared he was just thrown back not shot.

i thought it was kind of odd designed the murder of caesar from the very beginning, making him distrust locke and then betraying and killing him to "protect" locke. the question is why? did he do it to gain locke's trust - to repay the debt he owed for killing him? or did he know who those people were and he wanted to get the war started...the next time we saw the 316ers they were set on fighting someone and it stands to reason that the murder of caesar is what got that ball rolling.

if the bullet hit des, is wasnt a critical hit. maybe shoulder or arm. definitely not a chest wound. it is plausible that adrenaline would overcome the injury to defend his wife and child from a threat.

someone mentioned that the O6ers could still be on the island after 30 years...i really hope not! this will turn into geriatric island lol.

Why did i not see Sayid!!!!!!!! I love him. and he is just gone. The episode was great, but I cant go another week without my baby.

even if desmond was hit in a critical spot, i would think the island wouldn't let him die?? ms hawking said it wasnt done with him yet.

Don't know if anyone else has seen this, but, there is a bar in Barcelona Spain named Bharma!!! Check out the photo's!!! My daughter and I are talking about a season finale trip!! This place rocks! C'mon NYC & LA we need a Bharma in the good ole USA!!!!!

Who is funding DI and how did they know about the island?

...MIGHT BE A SPOILER TO SOME...

CHECK THIS OUT. On TMZs website. It is not really a spoiler, but just a brief encounter with "Ben".

http://www.tmz.com/2009/04/09/ben-from-lost-guards-secrets-til-death/

.....END OF SPOILER.....

still think Richard is some kind of temple priest, which is how he can judge who is right to come to the island (Juliet and John as a boy for two examples) His immortality is somehow tied directly to his service to the temple - or maybe I just want Richard to be immortal so I know he'll always be around...

Alex said she knew Ben was planning on killing John anyone else think maybe unplugging the drain was for something entirely different than calling Smokey. Smokey didn't come when Ben unclogged it, so maybe he's up to something...

Just a clarification here....the post way up there that said things like "girlfriend" and "OMG yo" was not made by me. Apparently there is a new Tasha or someone has stolen my name again and done a very poor impression of me!

@Kim J

that makes sense to me, too. i think the relationship between the leader of the others and richard is very similar to a king and a pope in the middle ages. the king was considered to be chosen by God, and the pope is the person closest to God. both have tremendous power, but neither can use it (openly) against the other. in the case of richard and the others, the island is what is holy. we know that the island chooses its next leader and i get the feeling richard assists to make sure that happens (saving Ben, visiting Locke).

First off I have to say for me personally-the best episode ever!{Ben lover that I am}

I cried last night, and just watched it again and found myself moved in the same way. If Emerson or O'Quinn don't get an emmy out of this season, there's something wrong in the universe!

Read several other recaps today, and one stood out (so I watched & listened real close-second time around) Locke obviously has been "changed, enlightened, impowered" whatever you want to call it.

But the post said to listen to his voice in some scenes, and it definately did not sound like the original actors' voice. They suggested that he is definately "one with the island" now, and I agree!

Every scene, he had that knowing smile on his face-awesome!

Totally loved Ben, I think he was sincere in that he accepted that it WAS his fault for Alex death, but in true Ben fashion..you all know he will never follow Locke blindly!

biggest ? for me was, did he recognize Christians' name & know who he was, or not?

And is it possible he DOES remember his past?

And why did Locke keep changing the shoes?

Oh and one other funny post I read, someone commented that Frank looked like a 70's porn star, with his shirt unbuttoned to reveal his chest hair-LMAO!!

I really feel sorry for the fans who dropped off of Lost, they don't know what they are missing!!!

Tootsie,
I will have to go back and listen to Locke. Are you saying that someone else spoke the words or he is just speaking differently? Either way I'm intrigued.

As Locke said after viewing the Orientation filmstrip, "We're gonna need to watch that again"

@LIP-It does'nt sound like his voice, so I'm not sure! but I did notice it (paticularly when he said to Ben: after Ben said "you dont't know the first thing what this island wants" and Locke says "are YOU Sure?"

Somthing like that, I sure someone can fing the actual words on re-caps, I am getting company in 10 min-or I would look for ya!

re: Smokey in the water

There was a book that came out this year by Stephen King - Dumas Key - where at the end of it (DONT READ IF YOU WANT TO READ THIS BOOK)..............................................................................

in order to contain the evil spirit it had to be sealed inside water to stop it. Somehow being caught in water neutralizes it. Maybe this is the same thing Ben & the others had to do to smokey to keep him locked down in between "uses"

I also noticed that Locke sounded different, especially at the beginning of the episode, before he and Ben caught up with Sun and Frank. There was one line in particular that made me think "is that actually Terry O'Quinn talking?" but I don't remember what it was. On a completely different topic, there are comments above about Richard having some sort of special knowledge about which people to recruit (ex: Juliet, teenaged Locke). I like to think that the reason he recruited (or in Locke's case, tried to recruit) both of them was that he remembered them being there before. When Locke was at Richard's camp in the 1950's, he told Richard when and where he would be born. Similarly, Richard probably brought Juliet to the island to try to help pregnant women give birth because he knew that she had done it before in 1977. Ethan may very well have been the first and the last person actually born on the island. Just because Ben can no longer remember what happened in '77 (with Sayid, Juliet, Kate, etc...) doesn't mean that Richard can't.

*correction: Ethan may have been the first and last person born to members of Dharma or the Others on the island. Almost forgot Alex and Aaron. Maybe I should get some sleep :)

@ardenweller,

Aaron was born to Claire. She wasn't an Other.

it's not the voice that has changed, it is the way the actor is approaching the character (both locke and ben). at one point, ben makes a comment and locke says something like "now you know how i felt." it is good acting.

I always assumed that Jacob and Christian were one and the same.

Smokie's lair is not very dignified or impressive. Yucky muddy water and a funky plug was not what I had in mind for it. Kind of a letdown. Why not something more worthy and representative of Smokie's might? Like a huge black cauldron with with smoke and embers arising from it. Smokie could be summonsed by a gigantic torch waved over the top of the cauldron. Or striking a giant gong near it. But hey, no one on the show's writing staff asked me.

I read some posts regarding Locke taking off his shoes. But they weren't his shoes. Jack put Christian's shoes on Locke.

I read Daniel's blog but I have not read any comments yet...
Daniel, should we call the new losties (flight 316) "losties TNG"?
I also thought the Ben/Smokey/this-is-your-life/angry-ghost-Alex segment was cheesy; so cheesy that I trouble focusing; it was like a really bad Sci-Fi channel movie. I am sure that it was necessary to impart information on us but I was glad when it was done and we returned to the usual classier Lost fare.

What is the connection between ethan being there when alex was stolen and ethan attempting to steal pre born aaron from claire? Hmmm.

In any other place, if I had seen the words "test of island faith" I would have thought it was totally weird. But with Lost, I just keep reading. It totally makes sense. Gave me a laugh.

Isn't Ethan a doctor? Now that we know he was born on the island, it makes me wonder about that. He would have left the island to go to Medical school..

i rewatched and took some notes of questions that arose.
richard tells widmore that jacob wanted it done when it came to ben's being taken to the temple. i think that ben knows he was healed because he was told not because he remembers it.
jacob went to him as his mother and because he saw her and followed it must have proved something as a connection to the island.
i love how locke was totally calling no way on ben at every step and making him totally work for it - the detailed explanation and then just wanting an apology. i agree with they both deserve emmys for their convincing portrayals of these complex characters.

so the purge wasn't ben's idea - it must have been widmores and he had to carry it out which is why he passed it on fraternity style by attempting to get locke to kill his dad...interesting. ben crosses widmore with richard's obvious approval with his looking away like i don't know what this guy is talking about. Ben must have saved ethan at least and maybe other kids...
ben broke alex's music box that sayid fixed

ben showed mercy to rousseau and alex where widmore saw them as collateral damage.

ben's voice when he answered locke's statement of he decided to help him and ben says "help me do what" the tone was just so spot on ...and then his apology to locke is killing caesar. next time just say im sorry kay?

Locke was totally using the jedi mind tricks on caesar - to no avail it seemed but when he said im gonna take it and youre gonna let me my friend it was like he was summoning obi wan at that point.

ben was talking about frenemies! he is so HIP. and locke then burning him about not letting him die twice.

Does anyone think that when the new losties, ilana and her buddies on the beach, were about to shoot ben that it strongly echoed when rousseaus team went crazy and almost shot her on the beach?

Just watched it, before I read... OMG KEAMY!!!! :)

That is all.

Awesome episode! I just love the ones that make you think WTF?!
Can't wait until next week.

Maybe Ben did remember Sayid when he saw him in the hatch as Henry Gale. When the Losties returned to the "real world" and he made Sayid kill all those people as revenge, maybe that was really to mess with Sayid's head. Sayid is always trying to conince himself that he's not a killer, that he's a good person, but Ben turned him into a killer confirming Sayid's own fears about himself. And that's Ben's way of getting revenge on Sayid.

Maybe it was just me but did anyone notice how when Locke, Sun and Ben were walking to the temple, Sun and Ben were dirty, there clothing had dirt spots on it and their faces yet Locke was completely clean, he looked like he just stepped off the plane. That made me wonder if Locke is actually human or a ghost since being re-incarnated. Even his confidence and calmness about everything made me wonder...

OK, just now watching this on-line again. Noticing some stuff that has probably already been mentioned. Locke makes a point of packing Christian's shoes into his pack before leaving for the main island with Ben. Then the first thing he does once there is put them on.

Killing Ceasar...

LOTS of Easter weekend references and imagery.

Good timing and excellent work by the writers. The actors, too.

Just LOVED Desmond beating the crap out of Ben. Alex, too.

As sympathetic as this episode was to Ben, I still liked seeing him getting his a** kicked.

Still impressed about the forethought and timing that must have gone into putting this "I have been murdered but now I'm alive again." into the Easter week episode.

I mean we already knew Locke was alive again, but the THEME this week was judgement and rebirth.

What lies in the shadow of the statute?

The statue: the broken foot shown previously and I think in full scale in a "past" scene. The wall with the hieroglyphics clearly showed the Egyptian god Set (god of the dead) with the smoke monster coming out. The smoke monster is shadow and the statue must have been Set now that we see who the smoke monster reports to and who it represents. Death.

Who lies in the shadow of the statue?

Ben Linus. Lies is a double entendre. He is the resident magnificent liar and once you know the answer, you definitely know who is behind this new set of events.

"Is it just me or is the dialog particularly good tonight?"
Courtesy of Brian K. Vaughan

@ lost in virginia | April 9, 2009 03:03 PM

Thanks for that link. I always enjoy some extra Ben/Michael Emerson time!

@lovesteamykeamy - I know they used the shot of Keamy because we're doing a 'ben-centric, kill the daughter' episode - but I got the impression ... wait for it...

that Keamy may actually show up again - just a gut feeling, but I hope it makes your weekend!

@ fanolost & steamykeamy - perhaps soon we will see the following credit: Smokey played by Keamy!

Who knows, he might. I just got real happy to see him in the "Previously on LOST" and in the smoke cloud. I'd be very happy if he popped up. I do know that Kevin Durand has signed on to play Little John in Ridley Scott's Robin Hood. :)

Geez, I just read on Wikipedia that Kevin Durand stands 6'7".....he's a walking tower!! But, then again, I am only 5'2" so pretty much everyone towers over me!

Yeah, he's one big ol' bad bear or something like that. I'd feel tiny next to him, I'm only 5'5". It's always funny to watch him tower over many of the actors in stuff he's in... ;)

LSK....have you seen this? http://keamysparadise.blogspot.com/

" We don't even have a word for it"... Wow, I know Ben can be a little deceptive, but come on now, it's the Smoke Monster aka Smokey.

MicheleD- yeah I had, but since my hardrive crashed, I lost the link. Thanks! :)

Good morning all@

@lovesteamykeamy - I totally thought about you when we saw Keamy!!

I also think that Locke was protecting the shoes possibly because he was going to eventually return them to their owner?

@ CAM - kinda got the feel that he was protecting them from getting wet, but I didn't think about he was protecting them so he could give them back to Christian. THis may be good news for ssarah - maybe we will see Locke and Christian together again...Locke and Christian: Dead is Dead?

Question about Ben's comment to Rousseau about the whispers. He told her to run away if she hears the whispers... what does that mean? The voices don't have a physical form, so they can't hurt her, can they? Or would they give her instructions that would get her harmed?

I, too, notice that Locked kept changing his shoes. What was up with that?

When Ethan took Aaron, he did't hurt or even touch Claire, right? That scene so eerily resembles the one with Ben and Rosseau...

Also, someone mentioned earlier that maybe Ben did something else besides summon Smokey when he pulled the drain. When he summoned Smokey before, he just walked into the room and pulle a lever or something, right?

Hey TOOTSIE!

Use a frickin spell check before you post next time. Did you ever get past the 5th grade?? Wow, that was atrocious.

Tommy

@ SamIAm - I took the warning about whispers to confirm what most if not all of us have been thinking....the whispers are an advance warning that Others are about to get in your face, so unless you want a confrontation, you better just run. Also at that time, Ben was supposed to kill Russeau, so maybe he thought that the Others or Smokey would try to kill her since he didn't. THats what my initial thought about it was anyway.

Aw, thanks CAM. :) I got so excited when he popped up... good thing I was watching it alone, lol.

Hi guys,
If you're ever having trouble falling asleep, feel like being bored out of your mind, or wish to have the sudden urge to stick icepicks in your eyeballs, please make sure to check out the most uninteresting LOST blog out there, mine!
http://lovesteamykeamy.wordpress.com/
LSK

@ SamIAm | April 10, 2009 06:20 AM

Last time we did not see exactly what Ben did to summon Smokey.

Posted by: lovesteamykeamy | April 10, 2009 06:27 AM

Wasn't me.

Have we actually seen the sub "sail" away. I think it is a transporter (beam me up scotty) and/or time machine. Which is why recruits are drugged when they first come to the island and how Richard hops around. The donkey wheel is something entirely different.

@ suzanne | April 10, 2009 06:43 AM

I have the same impression about the Sub, I don't think it actually goes too far. Maybe it pushes off and goes to the looking glass station... but I don't think it goes too far.

I don't think we have. We've seen Juliette climb out of it, Locke blow it up, and all the Dharma newbies at the dock, but I don't think we've seen it moving.

I gotta go to class, last post for a while.

One last thing before I go to class, but didn't LaFleur tell everyone that Jack, Hurley and Kate came in on the sub? This could be a big clue.

sub - then how did Tom and Widmore go on and off island? How did the Others that are working under cover on the mainland get off? I don't think everyone is drugged.

I agree the sub seems to be used for other things - and maybe it's not the official way to get on/off island. But then surely there must be another mode of transportation that some use.

@suzanne - Richard. I think Richard uses the portal to get back and forth through time.

But that's different from the sub 'current' time.

Actually, Amy was supposed to go to the mainland to give birth - and I believe they said 'like the others.'

I don't think the DI/Others were confined to the island, at least not all.

KIM K-

RE: Bens soft spots for moms.

He also was going to shoot Penny until he saw she had a child!

I hope next weeks episode is as good as this weeks!

Kim J - Opps

@ fanolost | April 10, 2009 07:04 AM

I agree, there must be another way to get on/off the island, but I think something/someone is trying to limit the knowlege of what exactly that is. I think the sub is a cover for the real mode of transportation.

the sub seems operational to me though ben seemed to be happy to be rid of it when locke took it out

i think the drug the majority due to the roughness of the trip but not everyon has to be drugged.

ben seems to connect with children due to his childhood trauma and cannot bring himself to complete such acts. he stopped himself from the revenge for alex i think once he saw it would affect a child killing her. such a complex guy which is why i love him.

ben had promised to take jack and juliet off the island that next am. i have a hard time believing that he would have made that promise without being able to deliver. ben has an issue about keeping promises despite his other lack of judgement in other areas. also when they brought locke's dad to the island - i don't think they used a teleporter or time shifting to get him did they? they just used the sub. cooper said he was in accident and the ambulance driver smiled at him and he woke up on the island which is why he thought he was dead....

Re: the sub

Sawyer told Jack that no one would notice that they weren't really on the sub because everyone is drugged and asleep.

If that is the case who is driving the sub? Who is drugging them? Wouldn't they have noticed that more people were unloaded? That they didn't drug those 3? And...Sawyer didn't take Hurley, Jack and Kate to the sub and then to Dharma, they came straight from the cliff area. None of that adds up.

Did the Others move into the Dharma stuff so that Ann Arbor didn't know that the DI had been killed and so the Others kind of assumed the role/life of the DI?

@nobody

I like it! Ben is what/who lies in the shadow of the statue. Liar, Liar Pantalones on Fire!

@jenn3 - Here's my thinking on the sub, I don't think it stays docked on island for any long length of time.

For the 3 06ers - we know they substituted for the two no-shows. And we know the manifest was doctored once it was received on-island with their names and a new 'spot' for Kate.

I think the 'driver' of the sub simply picks up and drops off. I don't think they are integral to the workings of DI on island. So the sub may have had 2 empty seats, but since that driver simply let 'em off and handed over a manifest (not looked at) - they aren't aware that the newbie ranks swelled in number by the time they got to the recruitment center.

Sawyer had the three blend in as the sub group came into the center.

fanolost - okay, I can buy that...but...there were other people on the sub that got picked up by other DI welcomers and brought to the sign in building, so wouldn't they have noticed that Sawyer was never down there? Something just doesn't add up and I just can't believe that the sub driver wouldn't ever look at the manifest or who was knocked out.... I would!

The God represented is the protector from/of the afterlife. The sguiggly lines also represent some sort of god. Not that I am adept at Egyptology. Anyone? I honestly think the Lost writers don't go too far with their historical/symbolic references: probably some intro to Archeology book and a lot of wikipedia. someone on this forum should be able to enlighten us.

Also, As for the monster, anytime they actually SHOW one of the paranormal creatures, or unveil an island mystery, it's always a little disappointing. I would rather it would just be told to us than shown. My imagine works wonders by watching shadows on walls.

Sort of like the figure with the staff which was momentarily enveloped in the smoke.

@ Mr. Eko, Caroline B?

Imagination. Works so much better with books when you're 'allowed' to conjure up what you may... but in the visual world of tv and movie - different medium, different expectation for me, imho.

Also, there are lots of posts regarding the hieroglyphs, Anubis, etc. I thought the lines were water (Monstah kept captive by it...).

@jenn3 - I know, I know. I'm not saying I like what I wrote, but I thought it plausible. There are things that happen in the show where I think, 'heck, no...' but then I suspend my reality and reset my mind to Lost...

@ fanolost - @jenn3 - I know, I know. I'm not saying I like what I wrote, but I thought it plausible.

Too funny....I could kinda tell. Also FYI there are some interesting spolierly things re: next episode on DarkUfo (you probably won't consider them to be spoilers though)

CLICK THE LINK AT YOUR OWN RISK - CONTAIN INFORMATION ABOUT NEXT EPISODE

http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/

Posted by: lovesteamykeamy | April 10, 2009 06:51 AM

Can't take credit for that... wasn't me...

@jenn3 - Holy moly - there were some SPOILERs in there... and if one is true - I will stop watching... ahem

Did you get a look at the pic of Sawyer with Bernard - all shirtless? yummy!

well if someone is returning next week - then I totally think Mr. Keamy is returning too...

@ fanolost - I have to confess I didn't watch them b/c I'm at work, I just read the brief outlines of what was revealed and that was crazy enough!

@ fanolost- Wouldn't that be sweet to have my Keamy back. LOST would keep getting better and better. :)

@LSK - like Cam, I said LSK (actually I said lovesteamykeamy) will be happy - to the dog...

Just know you're thought of on Wednesdays...

Awwww, now I'm blushing. :)

lol! I said "Steamy Keamy!"

Great episode!

in the previews for next weeks show we see jack standing in front of what appears to be a chalkboard with a bunch of writing. I was able to make out the word "Egyptians" and "2000 B.C." I think you all have definitely been going in the right direction with the whole Egypt thing... does anyone else know what it says, or if I was wrong in what I saw?

Back to class. And then done for the weekend!!!

Matthew Perry may be joining the cast of 'Lost.' Zap2It recently came across Perry's IMDB page, which lists the 'Friends' alum as playing "George Hobbes" in the show's two-part season finale. Meanwhile, nothing has been confirmed. It's another in the long list of the island's unsolved mysteries. (April 10)

I was very confused on the whole Charles being banished from the island senerio. Now was Charles banished by the others or by the island itself? This is confusing to me due to Ben's situation of having being judged by the smoke monster which I'm considering to be the island itself. Also, if Charles was banished by the island why would he desperately try to get back on the island when he knows the island no longer wants him. This scenerio arises many questions, I'm curious to see how this pans out.

I can't believe its so quiet here after such an amazing episode. I guess we are just all in awe.

SPOILER DISCUSSION -

fanolost - re: and if one is true - I will stop watching... ahem

did you see whatever you were refercing from watching the videos or from reading. Like I said I didn't watch b/c I'm at work, so maybe thats why I am confused.

@ AZ Wildcat.. no thought or theory is crazy on Lost!! :)

Don't forget Ceaser and Illana were snooping around Farrday's place (i think) They're all into some spit and know way waaay more than we can think. I like someones idea that the 316 group is a band of other "losties" from the past. a contunious circle... i bet its been happending over and over and pever for thousands of years.

@jenn3 - read, regarding it can be 'the past, the future, present event.' attached was a certain picture - ew ew ew

do you understand now?

@isadora - Thanks! I feel a little inept when I read all the other great postings and the light bulb goes off in my head and i say, "Ohhhh! of COURSE!" My entire office thinks I'm totally wonky. New Dumb Idea: Alex knew Ben wanted to kill John Locke (again!)...Does anyone think when Ben summoned Smokey he was hoping Smokey might go after Locke instead?

Jenn3 @ 6:23am

I know that the whispers have caused a few people to show up (actually, all I can think of is Harper at the moment). But the physical manifestations of the whispers have never hurt anyone, right?

I just keep thinking about the Boone whispers when Shannon dies. They weren't there to confront her...

@ Anonymous - Good point. But the Boone whispers (and I am so glad someone else besides me think they were Boone) happened right before Shannon saw Walt right? and then right after she was shot by Ana Lucia.

So maybe Shannon still shoulda ran, but Ben shoulda told Russeau which way to go.

Having read the transcripts of the whispers on lospedia, I actually don't think any or at most of them, are malicious. It the stuff that happens within seconds of hearing them that is usually not so good for whoever heard them.

But like Sawyer heard them and nothing bad happened to him. *Throw hands up in air* I have no idea. I keep thinking one thing and then typing my way out of it.

Does anyone remember the opening of the TV show "Get Smart", when Don Adams is going through all the doors and the phone booth to get to Control HQ. When Ben was going to the Bat Cave I thought the writers were giving a wink to the series, a homage/parody. After all Lost is sort of like Get Smart... secret agents and alliances, counter espionage, dastardly organizations, mind blowing predicaments... Control & Kaos.

@ isadora fiend | April 10, 2009 10:49 AM

I don't remember anyone being in Faraday's place, am I missing something?

Does anyone remember the opening of the TV show "Get Smart", when Don Adams is going through all the doors and the phone booth to get to Control HQ. When Ben was going to the Bat Cave I thought the writers were giving a wink to the series, a homage/parody. After all Lost is sort of like Get Smart... secret agents and alliances, counter espionage, dastardly organizations, mind blowing predicaments... Control & Kaos.

Sorry about double post.

@isadora and Cam - Cesar was in Ben's office/Hydra - is that not where Ben was when he took the Alex photo this week?

@jenn3 - do you understand my spoiler commentary after I posted a reply to you?

fanolost - I totally didn't see your response....hold one

@fanolost, yeah, Cesar was snooping in Ben's office. Although maybe in another life it was Faraday's office...

fanolost - no...once again I don't get it. oh and hold one should have been hold on...sorry.

@jenn3 - did you see the spoiler comments next to the photo of le fleur and 'she who shall continue to not be named'? - that's the commentary that made me say I would no longer watch...

@lsk - HA... exactly...

fanolost - I got it now...I'm sorry. However...it could be past, present, future for just about anyone with all this time travel. fingers are crossed tho.

I thought that a lot of attention was paid to close-up shots of the eyes of the characters, re- the eye colour green was everywhere, even a shot of Richard's, when Ben returns with baby Alex...were green.

@ fanolost, I was so sidetracked by the other stuff that I didn't ever scroll that far down the page.

I will have to pay more attention to my own post about spoilers next time :)

I will have to pay more attention in general...that last anonymous was me.

@jenn3 - HAHAAHAHA... glad you got it... and that shirtless Sawyer... ooh la la

So I gotta ask.. I know we talked about this a little yesterday or at least I did with one of the one l Michele's (sorry, now that there are 2 of you I can keep it straight)

Who thinks Ben's look at Sun when she mentioned Christian meant that he knows about Christian?

fanolost - he was looking tan and hot!

@jenn3 - sawyer yummy.

Yes, I definitely thought Ben wasn't surprised about Christian being around - slightly interested in the contact though. I mean, there was a reaction - seemed like 'hhmm. so he's involved ...'

does that make sense?

Hey, back about the sub, I believe they are dematerialized sitting in the sub in Portland and rematerialized in the sub on the island. This way no one can follow or track them, nor do they have to file any kind of travel plans with Coast guard (if you have to???). Pregnant women sent two weeks prior to due date for a very long sub ride seems very risky. Maybe only first timers are drugged to keep them calm and in the dark or maybe all are for the same reason. I would think its a very long trip if it really is a sub ride and you would be drugged for all that time (week or two), did everyone wear diapers or catheter and hooked to IV's for fluids and nutrition. Only sending them instantly makes sense.

@ fanolost - yes it makes sense. Sometimes I think that there is a fluctuation in Ben's voice when he is lying about knowing something v. really not knowing. Almost sarcasm combined with condescenion (is that how you spell that)

Think about the way he said it to Sun v. the way he talked about the Purge to Hurley Do you know what I mean or am I crazy. Love is blind! LOL

I've been thinking about Ben's experience in the temple and the picture of Smokie and the god Anubis. I think the writers were brillient in having tapped Egyptian mythology for this part. In ancient Egyptian religion, when a person died Anubis acted as a psychopomp and guided the soul of the deceased to the Hall of Ma'at aka The Hall of Truth to be judged; however he did not do the judging. The soul had to give the 42 Negative Confessions and then have their soul weigh against the Feather of Ma'at/Truth. If it weighed more than the Feather of Truth the soul was devoured by Amenti, a composite being made up of three different animals, and ceased to exist...do not pass go, do not collect $200, your ride is permanently over. If the heart weighed less than the Feather of Truth that soul got to move onto the ancient Egyptian version of heaven. It seems like Smokie has the role of Amenti and it's not hard to see why they included Anubis as well.

That is really interesting Denise! The Egyptian stuff, like most of LOST is over my head, but I find it intriguing.

@jenn3 - No, I get what you say about inflection in Ben's voice and how it deflects from lettiing on he knows or not.

Then again, I admire the man called Ben, so we may just be blinded by the smoke, that is monstah, which comes from the ancient egyptians and statue of ... vincent!

this has been the longest day... sorry for the drivel

@jenn3 - are you the one who mentioned not a whole lot of blogging? It's a holiday weekend and I suspect that's the reason. Come Monday - look out!

@Denise - interesting regarding Amenti...

fanolost - it was me...I still had to work tho :( leaving now! yay!

@suzanne

i think you are reaching a little bit with this sub stuff.

Hmmmm, long sub ride vs have every atom in my body (and my baby's body) pulled apart and reassembled?? I would have to go with the sub. Sorry suzanne.

did anyone else think that ben look genuinely surprised and shocked when sun showed him the dharma picture with part of the o6 in it? like his mind immediately went to the purge?

I was not trying to be mean, I was just making a joke there.....

Trying to put things in perspective...

So it seems the visions people have been seeing on the island (Hurley's psycho friend, Yemi, Kate's horse...) is the Smoke Monster taking shape. Well, if the barracks are surounded by the sonic fence to keep the smoke monster away, then how was young Ben able to see the vision of his mother at his window?

@ Acer - Someone could have left the fence off, or it maybe was turned down to a lower level?

I must say, this was one of the best episodes this season!

I think little Ben had turned off the fence one of the times he saw his mom.

Long time reader, first time poster. After re-watching the episode, I was reminded of a past episode where Rousseau described what happened when Alex was taken.

This is from Lostpedia:
The pillar of smoke appeared in "Exodus, Part 1" after Rousseau warned the survivors that the Others were coming. Rousseau claimed the same pillar appeared right before the abduction of her daughter, Alex, by the Others, a week after her birth.

It seemed like Rousseau was woken up when Ben came in. Where did she see the smoke? It was a big focus for that episode with her taking Aaron in hopes to exchange for Alex. Just was surprised to not see it tied in to that scene.

where is everybody

I am pretty sure Ben goes back a different day and deactivates the fence to find his mom. This is the day he stumbles upon Richard and asks to be one of them. They don't really say anything about the fence status the first time he sees his mom, but Ben stays on the inside of the barrier and speaks to his mom on the outside. She tells him not to follow her, or something like that.

First I have to say I loved the episode! However, I also have to say that I was terribly, terribly disappointed with the CG in the Ben/Smokey showdown. I mean, the Eko/Smokey showdown was so badass so I was expecting its showdown with Ben to be that x10! But all we got was cheesy graphics and some flickers of him and Alex. Lame. Are we to assume that letting Alex die was the only thing he did that the island deemed "wrong" so that's why it's the only thing he was shown? That had better be it. I'm giving the horrible smokey scene a pass just because I love LOST and the rest of the episode ruled...I'm just surprised that only a handful of people have mentioned just how big of a letdown the Smokey/Ben showdown was!

P.S. I know Daniel practically said the same, just wanted to see if anyone else was as disappointed?

yeah, but the drain part was cheesier! lol (I sound like a Kraft commercial!)
I suppose we're supposed to take that as Ben ALWAYS thinks of the island first, but Alex wasn't supposed to die as Widmore had said.
loveSteamyKeamy - I yelled our Keamy's name and thought of you, lol, and my son looked at me and said "what?" haha good to see you back. Lot of "regulars" haven't been around much.

Just rewatched Dead Is Dead and it was even better the second time (especially knowing Des doesn't die.) Ben's SO incredible! He truly looks like a deer in the headlights. He is NOT used to not being in charge.
I think they used some sort of audio trick to make Locke's voice sound "smokey" - no pun intended! lol

Daniel - Did you get the new Prince double cd? Haven't had a chance to yet. Maybe it'll make you feel better lol

This solidifies Ben's weakness for children. He had Juliet brought to the island to save the pregnant moms and their babies.

How come Ilana did not ask Ben what sits in the shadow of the statue??? Why ask Lapidus? Seems odd to me that she asked him but not Ben.

Just a comment on Locke's shoes....he wasn't changing them, but going barefoot on the beach, clapped the shoes together to get the sand off, packed them in his backpack, then went barefoot in the boat with Ben. When they arrived on the island, (Home Sweet Home), we see him sit and put those same shoes on again. They are not his shoes, but Christian's, which Jack put on him in the coffin back in LA.
There HAS to be some significance to this or they wouldn't have bothered focusing on it.
Is there some weird connection between Locke and Christian?
Can't wait for next week's episode!

Just a random thought about Locke's shoes - as his vs Christian's.

Could it be that putting on the different shoes gives him different characteristics/powers? Kinda like Clark Kent pulling off his suit and revealing his Superman cape and outfit?

Maybe putting on Christian's shoes allows him to do/see certain things/people??

You're right rollerdonna, there has to be something more to it or they wouldnt have focused on it.

We're likely to find out more about this.

In this episode, I was expecting an explanation for Ben losing his innocence. Could someone explain me how Ben is less innocent now than before?
I was also disappointed that Caesar got shot so easily, I just love Saïd Taghmaoui. Do you think he's dead?
And if Ajira people are Widmore's and old Charlie wants to get back to the Island so badly, how come he's not with them?

I don't Ben think was talking to Alex, Ben was talking to Smokie, remember when Ecko thought he was talking to his brother and he mocked him and changed into Smokie and killed him. I think Smokie was telling Ben to not kill John and to follow John's instructions.

Didn't read all the posts - so sorry if this is a repeat.

i don't know if anyone watches the new penguins of madagascar show that is on nick...there have been at least 3 or more lost references on the show since it started. the penguin known as kowalski - the 2nd in command and options guy talked about philosopher Locke and then made a reference about perfecting his time machine as well as one devoted to feet of the 4 toed variety. it seems that there was another but i cannot recollect the other.

widmore and ben's recon doesn't seem up to par...

he didn't see the phone call from ben to kill penny coming? he could track an island but not know where his daughter was?

and ben? didn't know that penny was a mom? seems off for him but again after alex died he was a distracted and conflicted individual. despite hhim always having a plan he can't always execute the plan as pursued.

"Quoting"
Hey TOOTSIE!
Use a frickin spell check before you post next time. Did you ever get past the 5th grade?? Wow, that was atrocious.
Tommy
Posted by: Tommy Tutone | April 10, 2009 06:22 AM

Hey Tommy Tutone: Boy did I ever misspell some words! LOL, that’s what happens when you’re getting ready for a dinner party & trying to blog @ the same time. And also drinking, (see getting ready for dinner party reference).

But thank you so much for so eloquently pointing that out. I have to correct you on one point; I already stated that I completed 6 whole grades of Catholic school!

I sure will try much harder in the future so I can get that gold star of approval from you!

Well ya'alls, I better goes and rest my brains now, those were some powerful big words for me!

It's interesting - I think people have more to say on the episodes that overall weren't as highly liked as this one!

Not as many comments this week!

Dharma Initiative put up the sonic fence to keep the "hostiles" out, not to keep smoky out. Smoky would just travel underground to get past the fence.

I could be wrong about this, but didn't Anubis have the head of a jackal and the body of a man? If so, wouldn't he have 5 toes like a man?

Yeah, Smoky probably wasn't kept out by the fence. He has his own way around, man! lol.

One thing that I guess I got wrong was how Widmore was tricked by Ben. I thought Ben had tricked him into turning the wheel from his (Widmore) conversation with Locke in the desert. Guess he tricked him in some different way and that led to him bound and being escorted to the sub.

Hey Duffy! Good to see you, too! ;)

I don't think that the fact that the statue has specifically four toes is very important as I read somewhere that at first they wanted to show a foot with 6 toes but it didn't look different enough from a normal foot. I guess the most important is that it's not a five toed foot probably because the statue is the representation of a god (Anubis) and not a human

My theory on Ben's soft spot for kids is a simple one. Ben had his innocence taken from him when Richard took him to the temple to be healed. I think Ben longs for that innocence he lost, and probably hopes he can recapture some of that, or at least guard it from being taken away from the children.

I do remember smokie being stopped by the fence. It was in the Juliet and Kate episode where they are chained together. Juliet enters some code and makes Kate get on the other side. Of course she swears she doesn't know what smokie is. Her usual blah, blah, blah.

I'm leaning towards the island must've really wanted Alex dead. Ben, I think, was trying to protect the baby from Smokie and using Dharma technology to keep children safe. The island sure didn't heal Alex or send her a savior.

Hey all. Long time troller, first-time poster. I just re-watched "Dead is Dead" and I have some thoughts. Some posters have stated they think Locke might be the smoke monster and I have to say, I disagreed for some time...until now. After watching the ep again, I'm beginning to get the sense that Locke is dead (hence the title of the ep) and that the island "presence" is mimicking Locke in order to lead the losties towards some direction (no theory on that yet). I get this impression not only from the name of the ep, but also that Locke disappeared when Ben was being "judged." Additionally, the smoke monster did not appear at Ben's house when Locke was there (coming out of the woods). This would also explain why Locke "knows" things now. Additionally, the smoke monster took the form of Alex and was adamantly in favor of Locke. The hostility seemed to make me think the smoke monster has some motive in all of this that is not yet apparent. Just a theory guys, don't burn the newbie.

I am wondering why does Charles keep saying he is trying to get back to the island, but he sends other people to the island. Why not go back with them? or is it that he CAN go back, but is scared to go because of what may happen to him (smoke monster)if he returns especially since he was already banned and it seems he is the "bad guy".

was anyone able to make out the last words ben spoke in response to alex demanding that he follow alex? Either i'm going deaf or it was all mumbles with what sounded like "sawyer" at the end.

@Jackofalltrades....theory well-taken. It does not seem impossible. Of course the writers/creators of the show may be messing with us. They do know, however, that Lost fans pick apart everything to try and figure out what means what on the show! So, I think anything is possible, including JL being a physical manifestation of Smokey. Your thought about Alex being pro-Locke would fit right into that idea. There was something very preternatural about her in that scene.

@MicheleD- lapidus went back to the other island by himself at the end of the episode. Ilana didn't ask ben because ben wasn't there then, only lapidus. Not sure why she asked him then, but I agree with people above that think ilana and the 316ers have been "infected" like rosseau's people.
@lostintranslation- I'm not sure we will find out what ben's "innocense" is. I think richard may have simply been referring to the fact that ben would no longer be just a kid, he would turn into an "other" and have to deal with things (like plotting to kill his father along with all the dharma initiative) heavier than any child should have to deal with. I could be totally wrong here too, but I think everyone is making the innocense comment a bigger issue than it actually is. that's just my opinion though!
@lostinmymind- someone above said they thought ben said sawyer too, but someone else clarified this, he actually said "I swear".
Wow, once again I am amazed at how much I missed! I need to rewatch to see all this stuff about Locke; his shoe changing, voice changing and possibly being smokey! I think I have watched every episode this season twice, I watch wednesday night then I watch again after I read daniel's blog and all the comments. My fiance is a lost fan too but he thinks I'm nuts! He refers to this website as my "lost crack." He just isn't a true diehard fan like we all are!

Oh yeah, one more thing...@cam and fanolost and whoever else originally mentioned this- caesar wasn't at faradays place, he was in ben's office at the dharma station on the second island that the 316ers are on (not the ISLAND island!) Caesar was however looking at what appeared to be faraday's notebook with all his time travel scribblings and drawings. This kinda worried me, because I can't imagine faraday ever leaving that book o' knowledge behind, it makes me think something bad happened to him....

I think Caesar only had one page of Faraday's book.
I can't imagine how he got it but I am pretty sure it was one torn out page.

Locke definetly does not seem like the Locke we've come to know. Just that hint of a smile the whoooooole episode. Very excitied to see how all this will turn out. Someone brought up the point of the "wormhole" from the dinkey wheel to Tunisia and said maybe that drain Ben unclogged was one as well. I'm wondering if there are worm holes all over the earth to get to and from the island, and maybe other places in the universe?

@Denise. Thanks for jogging my memory about when your soul gets judged in anicent egypatin religion. When your soul is weighed do you stand in front of Osiris, the ruler of the Underworld? Could that be Jacob in this sense? Even Richard answers to Jacob...

also i don't think we should just assume that the kid Whitmore had off the island is Penny... maybe it's Desmond, and that is the reason Whitmore and Eloise didn't want them together?

@isadora....nooooo! Des and Penny can't be brother and sister!! Some how I don't think the writers/creators will take away the best love story on the show by throwing that twist in. Now, Faraday being Widmore's son.....that's viable!

So my way of celebrating Easter is watching the History Channel and learning about everything...just saw this on one of the specials. It ties in the Jacob/Aaron ties - moreso Moses according to Exodus - to our numerous Egypt references.

I should have seen this along w/all this ancient Egypt stuff, but I'm more of an ancient Greek scholar. ANywhos...

Jacob left the land of drought (Canaan - modern day Israel) and went to the land of plenty (Egypt). He had a son, Joseph, who became as powerful as the pharoahs. However, after Joseph died, the Hebrews became enslaved under the ancient Egyptians. Around a century later, the Egyptians grew afraid of a Hebrew revolt and made a decree that all newborn Hebrew males be drowned in the river Nile, and from here lies the story of Moses - the younger brother of Aaron.

I'm not quite sure if anyone has laid it out like this before, there have been so many posts I can't remember them all, so I apologize if someone else already said this, but just in case it hasn't - here could be a little tie in to what seems are two main themes mayhaps: Smokie and the Anubis references along with the possible theory that the Shephard crew are descendants of Jacob.

What exact connection I'm trying to make, I'm not sure, but thought it was interesting to try...

I love the new Locke. As someone on another site said, "he is the same Locke only 10 times better". She likened him to Gandolph the White.

I supposed being murdered and resurrected will do that for you as it did for Gandolph the Grey in "Lord of the Rings".

I think that Ilana and her people work for Ben. He offered his help when they were moving the shipping container (how did that thing get on the beach anyway?), then he told them to have a nice day and went on his way. Hah! Not exactly something Ben would do or say unless he already knew what was in the container and where they were taking it.

If they are Widmore's people or sent by the Dharma founders in Michigan, they would be dangerous to Ben and he would know they would be dangerous. He would not leave it to chance.

On the other hand, I think that Caesar probably was sent by either Widmore or the DI. Ben knew it or suspected it and that is why Ben shot him so suddenly.

if i were locke i would be looking for richard to have a looksie in that book of laws...
now that his smokie question is answered locke should be looking at what was next on his list of questions for ben. like tell me more about the box you got my dad from? if cooper was indeed locke's dad which i still question.

emily is still up in the air with what is her deal and who locke's bio daddy really is?

bring back libby! hurley needs some ghost lovin'

Victoria- I agree Locke should be asking more questions. However, I am wondering if he isn't anymore because he knows the answers and doesn't need to ask. For some reason I just don't think Locke is in the dark on much anymore.

As far as his parents are concerned, I have never been convinced that either one was his real parent. I mean, Anthony Cooper was a pro so he could have somehow discovered Locke was a kidney match and was adopted, then just hired that woman to pretend she was Locke's mother to set up the con to get the kidney. I'm still waiting for a big reveal there...but if there is one it probably won't happen until next season.

Also, I don't know if I read this here or somewhere else (I think it was somewhere else?), so in case it was indeed somewhere else I just wanted to mention it here because I thought it was such a cool idea. The idea is that the Smoke Monster is somehow related to the ring of ash around Jacob's cabin. That Smokey is made of that ash (which is metallic) and is powered by the magnetism of the island. Super cool! What does everyone think of that idea?

well the ash most def connects with jacob and the cabin and perhaps ben controlling...

i really enjoy locke's observational skills and how interested he looks and absorbing everything.

smokie is connected to ancient. judgement of whatever variety. call it what you wish. ben best be listening to and supporting locke however it will be a rough path to accept for ben - giving up control - he will still always have the plan.

i remember the other lost reference on penguins of madagascar. mort - the lil lemur character voiced brilliantly by andy richter whispers very quietly during one epi... help me...

ala jacob to locke at cabin

Good morning everyone, hope everyone had a good holiday weekend!

I haven't read all the posts yet, but did a search and didn't find any mention of the fact that Amy said they had to bury the dead hostiles. Could this have something to do with the Others not wanting Smokie to reanimate the bodies? Have we seen it "be" anyone who we know was buried?

Morning Jenn3, so busy here during Holy Week that I didn't have time to post. Some good theories and Egypt info this week by posters I didn't recognize. Someone asked a question in regards to when Ben lost his innocence. (I think because it wasn't evident in this last epi.) I think that's a really good question. Since the writers crawled up a wall and wiped Ben's memory regarding how he was shot, you can't really say the trauma of Sayid shooting him had any effect on his loss of innocence. I do think Ben is more than ever a more sympathetic character (most LOST characters are after you they do a few flashbacks and you better understand their motivations.)

I am looking forward to some Ben-related questions being answered in coming LOST episodes:

How much of Ben's innocence was impacted under the tutelage of the Other leader- Charles Widmore (going out and shooting Rousseau seemed to be some kind of rite of passage for Ben, and maybe Ethan as well.)

Where and when did Ben get all of his "secret agent" training. He certainly had all the tools in his secret closet (passports, foreign currency, the collapsable baton-style martial arts weapon, even a standing hotel reservation in Tunisia)? You would think that, similar to Widmore, he was off the island occasionally on Other business.

Was Alex killed by Keamy (under the direction of Widmore) for retaliation for Ben disobeying the order to kill her originally during the scene they showed in the epi?

The other curious thing that relates indirectly to Ben, is how much was done on the island because someone else said Jacob wanted it or it was in the best interests of the island. That rationale is so subjective and it kind of smacks of actions done in the name of religion. How do you prove that Jacob wants it or its in the best interests of the island?

Amy just wanted to bury the bodies because she didn't want the Hostiles to find them. the smoke "monster" doesn't reanimate bodies, it simply takes on forms that the person in question knows. I'm not sure if the person in question has to be dead, but so far it seems that way. Eko saw Yemmi, and ben saw alex. but if you remember just before Eko died "yemmi" said to him, "You speak to me as though i was your brother." that says to me that it wasn't really yemmi, just the smoke manifesting itself as him.

as for the couple of posts i saw about the dead bodies that we found in the cave way back when. I still think that they are rose and bernard. if you remember jack found a black stone and a white one on one of the bodies. i think that was a bit of forshadowing. JMO

@ flashest monk - re: Jacob wanted it...

I rewatched this weekend and the coversation between Richard and Widmore really stuck out
Richard: Jacob wanted it done.

and then one or 2 lines later
Richard: The island wants what it wants.

I think someone brought this up before, but it stuck out in this episode...Are Jacob and the island one in the same?

I don't think Widmore killed alex. i think Keamy was told to get ben, dead or alive, by any means nessisary. Keamy said he was being paid alot of money, and he was a war monger. As we saw when Michael walked up to the soldiers as they were shooting clay pigeons, guns were a power trip for Keamy. Ben bluffed, Keamy called.

i very much think that jacob and the island are one. and the smoke monster is the guardian. I'm abit dodgie on my anciant egyptian hyroglyphs, but it looks like to me that the carving above the cheese grater where the smoke monster came out was that of Anubis kneeling infront of the smoke monster. if i'm thinking right, and someone correct me if i'm wrong here, but i think Anubis is the God that guides the souls of the dead to their final resting place. if i'm right then that is pretty interesting

@Mike B - I don't think burying the bodies had anything to do with 'hiding from the Hostiles' - I think Amy knew to do it for a reason - which we don't know as yet.

@Flashest Monk and jenn3 - I took Ben's 'loss of innocence' to mean that whatever was going to save him (monstah or some other ancient thing) was also going to take something in payment - like his soul or something. Then of course, who knows what the Hostiles did ... but I thought the act of saving him was what took the innocence away. JMO

@ fanolost - I agree. I think that it was the act of saving him that solidified him becoming the next leader (not just becuase he didn't die) I think once you become the leader of the Others, your innocence is gone b/c you have to make decisions and do certain things that you may not want to, but have to because Jacob wants it done/the island wants what it wants. So even though you are called the leader, you don't call the shots, at least the major ones and if the island wants you to do something you don't have much of a choice.

@fanolost and Jenn3, if we take you theory one step further (the island saving Ben and the payment being his innocence) there is somewhat of a parallel to what happened to Locke (except the island, in all appearances, I know, "Dead is Dead" and there are numbers out there who think Locke is Smokie and I am leaning that way myself.) If we go with the belief that the island did resurrect or reanimate Locke, then wouldn't there be a parallel with Ben. The island takes Locke's innocence and in exchange, he becomes the leader of the Others. Just throwing that out there.

@ flashest monk - IMO Yes.(at least for right now, I am always open to someone shining the light on another idea/theory)I think Locke is changed and I think his innocence, not to be confused with his naivity, was lost when Ben shot him in the pit. It wasn't until then that he was willing to kill for the island/Jacob. I don't think anyway, my memory is a little fuzzy.

One other thing I wanted to point out is that Michael tried unsuccessfully to kill himself off island, twice. Wouldn't Locke have had the same kind of result? If the island truly wanted Locke back, just like it wanted Michael back to fulfill some kind of destiny, then maybe Locke's reanimation by the island isn't as far fetched as it sounds. It just goes in the face of "Dead is Dead", but who knows what Ben was doing in that conversation with Sun. In his conversation with Locke, he said he thought he would come back to life, but seeing it is another thing. In his conversation with Sun, he said it scares him to death? Ben is the master of misdirection. Doesn't outwardly lie, but does expertly skirt the issues (his protege Juliet does a great job of that as well.)

@Jenn3, after Ben shot Locke, there were still moments of self doubt and Locke being a unconfident fumbler. I think hanging him and really killing him (in the pit, the bullet just passed thru where his old kidney used to be, so it was a flesh wound) was the actual death and resurrection of Locke (how appropriate for Easter season, huh?)

@ flashest monk re: Ben and misdirection!!!! Thank you. Thats what I was trying to say last week! I'm not sure which one was the misdirection - fanolost and I were talking about this last week. There seems to be a change in the inflection of Ben's voice coupled with sarcasm and condescension when his is "misdirecting" or lying as some people think

@ flashest monk - definitely appropriate for the Easter season. But I think the doubt was his naivity. It was right after that that he killed Naomi. I think there is some distinction between Ben and Locke. Ben's insecurity and naivity disappeared early on his life re: being healed and being a "spy" for the Others. Locke was full of self-doubt his entire life. It wasn't until he hopped on the Christian train they he became confident, but IMO that is not the same as him losing his innocence. I could totally be wrong, but thats kind of how I'm looking at it, at least for right now.

Regarding Locke's resurrection, if we are using Biblical references, he is probably a better analogy with Lazarus, who Jesus resurrected from the dead 4 days after his death from his family tomb. (Proved Jesus' divinity to many at the time.) You can imagine what shape Lazarus body was in after four days. Reminds me that Ben had Locke's body stored at the butcher shop by Jill. Makes me think that of the two stories, Ben was probably telling Locke the truth about expecting the island to resurrect him. Maybe what scares him to death is the fact that the island now chooses Locke to lead and Ben has to do Locke's will without question. That's gonna be real interesting.

@flashest and jenn - I think Ben is working on coming back - regardless of what 'the island' may want.

I think he's learned so much that he can figure out a way to outsmart what seemingly controls the island events.

Locke. He's changing - but I don't know if it is to lead or be a messenger - sort of like Christian. I don't think you're a leader once you've been dead. JMO

I still feel like we're seeing a cycle - Christian to Locke - or Jacob - Ben to, what? Richard? Maybe?

Ajira group to the new Hostiles? DI? Don't know yet.

The more I ponder, the more I get confused.

@ flashest monk - re: Lazarus. Interesting. I really need to go back to Church School! I also am leaning toward the version to Sun being the misdirection. Maybe Dead is Dead - I mean, I don't think that Locke and Christian could physically leave the island and walk around and talk like they do on the island.

@ fanolost - The more I ponder, the more I get confused.

So true!

I also think Ben is working on a comeback, although "Don't call it a comeback" He wouldn't be Ben if he wasn't.

That is an interesting replacement/recycle theory. I didn't think about Ben becoming the new Richard before. Maybe Jacob and Richard are up for retirement. I hope Madoff didn't make off with their pension!

What are the chances that we're seeing a division along dead and alive lines? And the winner gets the island? Would it not make sense if the Egyptian theories are true that 'the dead' will inhabit that which they have been? And all these 'live' folk who have come as hostiles are the foe?

Putting Locke's body cold storage at the butcher shop would have preserved it. Ben was doing the island's bidding of bringing back Locke in the best shape so that he could be reanimated and fulfill his destiny as Other Leader. (We know that Locke's body was also a proxy for Christian, because of the shoe thing, but also that act of putting on the shoes in the face of what his rational thought was telling him, transformed Jack from Man of Science into Man of Faith. maybe some day, jack will get to be the leader? For now, he may very well have swapped positions with Locke in the island pecking order, with Locke leader and Jack leader in waiting?) Ben was probably allowed to return, only because of this act of bringing back Locke's body. Its the difference between him and Widmore, Widmore became bigger than the island (having a daughter off island, leaving the island multiple times) and was banished. Hasn't done anything to redeem himself, unlike Ben.

We have talked one of the reoccuring themes of LOST as Redemption. Ben bringing back Locke's body to be reanimated and to become the Leader (in the island's best interests, even though it repulses Ben) is Ben's redemptive act. As long as he humbly continues to serve Locke, he will be allowed to stay on the island.

I actually thought that the whole 'pulling the plug' scenario made sense - we know that Smokie travels via the Cerberus vents (remember the CV references all over the blast door map in the hatch?) Otherville is protected by the sonar fence which keeps Smokie out, I was seeing this as a vent blocked by water which when drained would be the only way for Smokie to enter the town - Smokie maybe cannot travel through water? hence why it is confined to the island, we never see it on the smaller second island where the Hydra station is (I don't think?). Thoughts?

@ flashest monk - Widmore became bigger than the island! Great way to put it...or at least thought he became bigger than the island.

Just to add a little, if we assume that Smokie is something to do with the electromagnetic properties of the island. Doing a little research - this is quite interesting:
Water is classed as diamagnetic, therefore it has a small repulsive response to an applied magnetic field - more specifically the molecule acquires a small induced magnetic moment (Faraday's Law - B-field induces E-field, creates induced magnetic moment) that opposes the applied magnetic field.
Faraday? coincidence??

@Laura - that's good! Not a coincidence, IMO.

ben does lie. in a past episode, he even said "i lied," about something, in that wide-eyed, surprised you that you believed him in the first place sort of way. and he did lie to jack about locke coming to see him and then lied to him again when jack asked him about it. if you rewatch the episode, you will see that he does say that he didnt see locke before he died (not that locke never came to see him, as he explains to jack).

i agree that i think ben was most honest about lockes revival when he spoke to locke about it. i think he did expect him to come back to life, but that it was still a surprise to him. he seemed to be putting on a show for sun, very much like the way he did for caesar.

i dont think locke is the walking dead or under the control of the smoke monster. that would make him sort of an infallible character, a superhero of sorts. it also kind of cuts his series arch in half. we are supposed to see characters evolve and change and if the majority of locke's transformation occurs when he is not really locke anymore, that doesnt work.

however, dead is dead...and i was a big supporter of "what happened, happened," and felt that if the title of the show tells us something we should trust it, so i cant offer an explanation for this one.

i dont think ben will try and kill locke directly...the island would not be happy about that. but if a war is coming, im sure ben could find a way for the enemies to take care of locke so that ben can retake the throne.

Laura - see how smart we are all getting thanks to LOST! I wouldn't even have thought to look that up. Thanks Laura and I agree with you and Michele - not a coincidence.

@Laura, I like Smokie being electro magnetic. We also know (indicated in a conversation between Daniel Faraday and Des in the constant) that Desmond's exposure to high doses of electro magnetism is why he was flashing thru time before he established a constant. Also we know from the Swan's orientation film that the DI was studying the telekinesis or psychokinesis and the effects of electromagnetism to enhance those abilities. There was a film in 1956 called Forbidden Planet where the inhabitants of the planet had left a machine that allowed individuals to materialize anything they desired to further civilization. This monster was attacking the explorers throughout the movie and eventually they learn that the subconscious mind (id) of one of the scientists was creating the monster. Since Yemmi and Alex both appeared as the smoke monster, its possible that the their minds are fusing with the electromagnetic entity to create those images during distress? (That was my original theory on "the Monster" during season one, that he was the same as the monster on Forbidden Planet, a creation of the collective subconscious minds of the Losties.)

okay okay billy...I admit that Ben does lie, but I don't think he lies more than anyone else on LOST. I guess one should never speak in absolutes about a LOST character! ha ha ha My nerdy borderlien sociopath crush has taken over my brain :)

JACK: When was the last time you saw him? I mean, Locke.

BEN: [Sighs] On the Island... in the Orchid station, below the greenhouse. I

but at the Lamp Post Jack changes the wording....

JACK: [Interjecting] You said John never came to see you.

BEN: That's true, Jack. I went to see him. [To Sun] Jin gave it to him before he left the Island.

@billy- we know Ben lies because he told Keamy that Alex meant nothing to him (I think he told Jack that Locke didn't visit him (Ben), however, Ben went and visited Locke- misdirection.) I would say Ben's technique is alot like people playing Survivor, don't get caught in a lie because you lose trust and people won't vote for you in tribal council, but its okay to misdirect and leave out details and play your cards to close to the vest (again, a good Juliet technique as well.)

"borderlien" meant borderline

and the first quote was the scene at the motel with Ben and Jack.

Ben has always lied. When we first met him, he said his name was Henry Gale. Lie.

@flashest monk - Forbidden Planet... also 'The' Star Trek - when they find that captain (from centuries ago) living alone and the energy thing would envelop him? It then manifested his desires... Even Spock had a time mind-melding ...

@ambrosia - but Ben could say he was 'playing' Henry Gale - with the docs to prove it!

But yeah, Ben does lie - but he's soooo good at it all.

@ambrosia- I don't disagree, but his purpose of assuming Henry Gale's identity was to infiltrate the Losties camp. I don't think that "Hi, I'm Benjamin Linus, leader of the Others" would have helped him collect information. Just sayin'. I believe sometime after they captured Jack, Kate and Sawyer and Ben told Michael that he was one of the "good guys" that Ben felt inclined to build trust with the Losties. At that point, he needed to create the aura or perception that he was a truthful man. No doubt he is a skillful perception manipulator, spin doctor, sales person, public relations manager, etc. Its his job.

@Jenn3- now you have me defending Ben, that's just sad.

@ flashest monk - Welcome to the Ben Club! We love welcoming new members!

@I am going to the chapel now to pray for my immortal soul. See ya!

Things i missed the 1st time round...

All the little details that i have to catch second viewing due to so much to absorb.

enjoyed locke questioning ben about moving into the DI houses after murdering them.

ben questions locke knowing what the island wants and then the light going on in ben's house.
locke seemed to be calling chicken on ben when he nonchalantly tells him he should go check it out.

so speaking of lying? is ben lying about not knowing about the losties being back in 77?
i love the look locke gives sun when she looks out the window. like yoo hoo hiya sun?

seems like there has been a lot of speculation about the sub. it seems like the scene where they are taking widmore off the island on it seems proof that it is operational?
so alex was supposed to die all along?
ben's look when he told sun about being sure about locke being dead "trust me i'm sure" (oh yeah i'm sure because i killed him)

Desmond's boat was named Our Mutual Friend. the name of the book he was saving until right before he died...i wonder if he ever read it.

could widmore have mobilized that quickly when ben told him he was going back to the island that day?

the boat that ben walks by on his way to kill penny is called "SAVAGE"

locke totally burned ben when he admitted that he didn't like blindly following john and then reminded him that he now knows how locke felt.

interesting that locke said - we're not going into your temple ben. didn't refer to it as his people's or anything...

ben saying sorry to des thru sun and then admitting to locke he was responsible for alex's death since he chose not to leave felt like his confessional. since he owned up maybe part reason of being 'saved' by smokie's judgement

i still have no clue about the what lies in the shadow of the statue question...sigh

i had to watch the next wed part like 10 times to catch all of it..

the narrator saysL
everyone on the island has a purpose
and his purpose could hold the answers to all their destinies (miles)

so chang says to miles "youre instructions were to come alone"

sawyer hits phil?
radinsky steps out and points gun at miles?

can't wait to find out more about everyone's purpose.

i also liked jack standing at the blackboard with info about ancient egypt on it

@Laura and flashest monk: I like your electromagnetic theory. I also believed that the first people who colonized the Island (Egyptians or whoever came from a hypothetic stargate) misunderstood the nature of smokey and thought it was some kind of god of death they related to Anubis. I also think that smokey is produced by people's thoughts (the whispers that announce the monster could then be people's inner voice or something) and reflects their conscience, a theory that, I have to admit, doesn't explain smokey's propensity to kill its own creators (maybe a form of suicide due to a very guilty conscience?).

@jenn3

Thanks for the lines! I was looking for them, but couldn't find them so I had to paraphrase. Now, if you can find the lines from when Ben says "I lied!" I remember seeing and hearing him say it, but I forget what the circumstances were.

@ Anonymous - are you asking me to help you prove that my Ben is a liar! I'm appalled. ha ha ha... do you remember what episode it was?

I just have to say, that while I agree Ben does lie, I don't think he lies as much as everyone thinks he does and he certainly doesn't lie more than anyone else. I think a lot of times he is all about misdirection and and omitteing things to get people where he wants them or where the island needs them to be.

Is lying the same as being sarcastic? I think Ben's comments to Sun were filled with his dry sarcasm and condescension.

Victoria - good outline. I thought the apology to Des through Sun was a last ditch stall and in hopes that it seemed sincere, but I think that the Alex comment was genuine.

@Victoria

If the 315ers are, in fact, Widmore's, they are likely not there for Ben alone. He could have planned to put people on a plane long before that

@Jenn3

I agree with you about Ben. I do think he is much more about misdirection than direct lying.... whenever possible, that is. ;)

so here is something i don't get and im hoping one of you can offer a different perspective.

when ben moves the donkey wheel, a number of things happens. 1. the island moves through time. 2. the island glitches and starts flashing, along with the remaining losties 3. ben leaves the island 4. the O6 are separated from the island. flash forward and the theme is that the O6 has to return to the island to save the lives of the remaining losties.

how do they come to that conclusion? nobody seemed to know that the island was flashing. there is no reason for ben to think the wheel would get stuck or that it even could get stuck. and even if he did know, it isn't even an accurate conclusion to come to. the lives of the remaining losties were saved by john locke when he unstuck the donkey wheel and himself moved off the island.

now, i know that jack and the rest were kind of surprised to find a happy healthy group of losties when they were so convinced that they were saving lives. im fine with that. but i still want to know how the idea of returning to save them even came about. who is the first one that said "we have to go back or they will all die."

@ billy - I think it was Richard to Locke during the time jumps (after Ethan shot him...when Richard came running through the jungle.)

@Jenn3

sorry that anon post was me. thanks for the lines. don't get me wrong. i am a huge fan of ben and even if he is evil, i do want him to beat widmore. but when people were saying that he doesnt lie, he only distorts, i find that to be incorrect. he does it all...lies, manipulates, distorts. i think he would prefer to distort the truth, but when he cant, he will resort to a lie. the convo with jack is a perfect example. he lies directly to jack about locke and then when he gets caught he lies again about what he originally said. 2 lies and he completely fooled jack. as a viewer, i questioned his explanation, but let it go and it wasnt until i rewatched it that i knew my instinct was correct.

@Jenn3

so locked jumped off the island and thought that the island was still flashing and the only way to stop it was to bring back everyone else? i guess you are right and i guess that makes sense...but i dont really like it.

@ billy - i thought it was you but couldn't remember. I don't disagree, but I think to peg him as the only one who lies isn't fair either (not saying thats what you did, but other people are)

Oh and I can't find the transript where he said I lied. I can find where Sun said it. do you remember the context of the scene?

@billy and Jenn3 - is it to save the others? Or do the 06 have to return in order to correct what's gone wrong - which started with the skipping (Ben)...

I don't know if it was ever said 'saving' people or saving 'what is supposed to be.'

Eloise's description is that if they don't all get back and correct things 'heaven help us all.'

And jenn - why can I not remember this shooting? 'splain please... which episode?

@jenn3 - I wonder if Ben saying 'I lied' wasn't in the episode 'The Lie' or 'Because you left' it's in this season - and I remember it (Billy you are right).

I haven't found a transcript as yet...

@ fanolost - it was right after ben turned the wheel, Locke flashed, saw yemi's plane crashed, was climbing the vine and Ethan randomly shows up, shoots john in the leg, they flash again and richard comes running through the jungle and says :

RICHARD: It points north, John. Look, I wish I had time to be more sensitive about this because it's a lot to swallow, but you need to know it in order to do what you gotta do. So I'm just gonna say it, okay? [Sighs] The only way to save the Island, John, is to get your people back here--the ones who left.

LOCKE: Jack, Kate... The chopper was headed for the boat. The boat--

RICHARD: No, they're fine, John, and they're already home, so you have to convince them to come back.

LOCKE: How--how am I supposed to do that?

RICHARD: You're gonna have to die, John.

[A loud high-pitched humming turns rumbling, and Locke pulls an arm over his eyes to shield them from the light. The rumbling stops. Birds chirping. It is light, and Locke is alone again, on bare earth, unsheltered by the Beechcraft. He looks into his palm at the pocket compass, and pants.]

SEASON 4 finale

BEN: And what did he say to you?

JACK: He told me... that after I left the island, some very bad things happened. And he told me that it was my fault for leaving. And he said that I had to come back.

BEN: Yes, I heard that you've been flying on passenger planes... hoping that you'd crash. It's dark, Jack, very dark.

JACK: Why are you here?

@ fanolost you were right! But I still don't get why they had to save the island, we all assumed it was so it would stop skipping, but that must not be it.

@Jenn3

Thanks again for those lines!

Also @Jenn3

I can't remember the circumstances of Ben's "I lied" but it was at least last season, maybe earlier. Hmm...doesn't matter, I guess, as long as you also remember him saying it.

@Jenn3 and all

Okay, so thats the start of "We have to go back" but how does that turn into "We have to go back or they all die?" Here are the possible reasons for thinking that (feel free to add any)

1. Locke was wrong and he saved their lives simply by leaving the island.

2. The return of the O6 will blow the cover of the DI Losties and thus save them from the purge.

3. There is some future event that will require that would kill the DI Losties if the O6 wasn't there to help them.

okay, fanolost remembers it too. dont search too hard for the line. it'd be nice to know, but i dont think its too important.

Season 3 Ep. 12

MIKHAIL: You told us The Looking Glass was inoperable. Flooded.

BEN: I lied. Mikhail, I need you to go now.

But for some reason I thought it was more recent than that.

I REMEMBER!

It was when Mikhail talked to Ben from the Looking Glass (before Charlie died). He questions why Ben told them (the Others) that the Looking Glass was non-functional and Ben replies "I lied."

oh, sorry, i was late on that lol. good work Jenn3

@ billy - I think it has to do with hearing what they want to hear, kinda like the game of telephone. Richard tells Locke they have to come back to save the island - Locke tells Jack that bad things happened because they left, I think implying that the stuff happening to Sawyer & Co. was because the O6 left, but it wasnt' it was b/c Ben turned the wheel. There is a huge piece to this puzzle still missing.

LOL billy! I never woulda remembered that!

@jenn3 - this time I may have remembered... HA

I don't think it's correct that the losties are in 1970s. I don't believe that they are where they need to be. And I think they have to get out before they muck up things - again.

I'm beginning to wonder if the original plane crash was 'supposed' to happen - or if it was a mistake that dear Des made by not 'playing the buttons' on time.

So the island or whatever had to start course correcting upon impact - and began choosing. Jack and his dead dad... etc.

Here I go again, overthinking - cuz really, then it's just too convenient that Eko is on board...

unless...

the island, monstah, whomever, is creating what we see - eko's brother's plane included - as a part of getting these intruders to do what needs to be done.

Jack said he didn't know why he came back. But he could've just answered Juliet with a Locke said so and here I am. I'm looking forward to finding out Jack's purpose. Sayid was captured and put on the plane, he didn't want to go back. Kate's episode made it seem like she came back to find Claire for Aaron. We haven't seen Hurley's flashback yet but he was seeing dead people and didn't like lying. Sun is looking for Jin. Dezi was like hell no I ain't going back. Is that everybody?

I'm not really a big fan of the "course-correcting" thing. Desmond saw the future and it was explained to him that he couldn't change it. If he tried to interfere, fate could course correct. But to apply that to the entire island as an explanation for events seems like a reach to me. Just my opinion, but every time someone says that the island is course correcting, I roll my eyes. lol no offense, fanolost.

Instead of trying to explain what happened, does anyone have any ideas for what SHOULD have happened when Ben turned the wheel?

Here is my answer, but I am not at all certain of it.

Obviously he leaves the island and it moves through time (and physical location?). All of the Losties move with it. There is no flashing. They all show up in another era and live happily ever after on the island. Ben can't ever come back because the beacon is down and he has no way of finding the island again.

@billy, Jenn3 Lostpedia has a section called deception and cons listing the lies of everyone appearing on LOST.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Deceptions_and_cons

To Jenn3's point, they all live in glass houses on the island. I like that their are 7 people (including our girl Cassidy) who have made a living at one time or another as a professional con artist.

@Ambrosia

I realize that everyone had their own reasons for going back, but the theme was "We have to go back or they die." It doesn't even have to be true. Im just curious what the justification of it was. Even if Ben made it up so that he could get them together to return to the island himself would be a good answer.

excellent link flashest monk!

going by this list, Kate and Ben are the biggest liars, followed by Sayid and surprisingly Sun.

@billy, Sun is no saint, adultery is a pretty big betrayl of trust. Ben has pretty much taken it to an art form, like using Juliet on Jack because she looks like his ex-wife. Brilliant.

@flashest monk

I think her biggest betrayal was when she borrowed the money from her father to pay off Jin's mother. We learned that after we learned about his destructive behavior, their marital problems and her adultery. And then she took the money, knowing that Jin would have to pay the debt (which made everything that happened her fault). So I suppose I shouldnt have been too shocked to see that list.

@billy - course correcting is from the writers - meaning that - Eloise? - and someone else have said these words... so...

If you go by titles of episodes and what people say - then course correcting is what is going on...

@flashest monk - it sure doesn't surprise me Kate is up there with Ben. But she's not as good at it ... she is so, well, unlikeable for me.

@fanolost

Yeah, I know, and it made sense when it applied to Desmond (and herself) as in you can't stop what is destined to happen.

I just don't think it makes sense to apply it to the island. You say course correcting is going on...how so?

correction, I think it made sense when it applied to Desmond (and Eloise)

@billy - I'm saying that's what the show is saying - I think we're doing a cyclic thing that's been happening for a verra long time.

Course correcting - as in, Charlie had to die and Des kept delaying it, but in the end he died.

That's one example.

I'll find more ...

@ flashest monk - thanks for that link! I see you still aren't totally anti-Ben!

@fanolost

Yes, I've said that course correcting made perfect sense when Desmond was saving Charlie's life.

But it doesn't make sense that the island is course correcting itself. At least not to me. I don't recall any mention of course correction on the show outside of the Desmond/Eloise/Charlie situation and that's why I was asking for another example.

For the island to be course correcting it would mean that someone(s) is seeing the future and trying to change it, thus the island is compensating for this action and "course correcting." I just don't see that to be the case.

Even with the 1977 Losties, Sayid TRIED to change the future, but his actions CAUSED the future that we know to be true. Kate and Juliet were driven to save a dying little boy and they CAUSED the future that we know to be true. Jack chose to stay out of it, and for whatever reason he had, he CAUSED the future that we know to be true.

None of this was course correction, in my opinion, and I don't think anyone could successfully argue that the island caused any of these actions. It was people on the island driven by their own choices.

If there is no one meddling with the future, then there is nothing to correct, because the future hasn't happened yet.

what about Alex - Widmore said to Ben you better hope it wasn't the island that wanted her dead, because if it was/is then she will be dead....

@Jenn3

Are you saying that Alex's murder was course correction?

I believe very strongly that Alex's murder was NOT course correction.

@ billy....I'm not sure, but it seems like its the closest scenario to the "course correction" discussed by Eloise without using the words "course correction" I guess there is no way to know until we find out if it was the island that wanted her to die.

@billy - I say that Widmore threatened that so when he (20 years later) killed her, it would appear as course correction (it's been going on for some time).

You assume that everyone in the 1970s has to be there and they've caused things.

I believe they shouldn't be there and what we're seeing is NOT what 'is supposed to be' but is happening because they are CHANGING what is supposed to be.

And yeah, I do believe the ancients are mucking around with past, present and future - and that they, if anyone, know the future. That could be Richard - or him and ...

@duffy

I do too. It happened 17 years after the fact and it was caused by Keamy. There was no vision of baby Alex dying that caused someone to try to intervene.

@ fanolost - sorry, thought I was helping, but I clearly wasn't.

I guess whether or not you buy into the course correction stuff depends on which time travel theory you are applying.

@ duffy - I take it you got your computer fixed? I've been meaning to ask, but haven't been on when you are.

Sorry if I am being argumentative about this but I am bored out of my mind at work. I just find this "course correction" thing to be an easy out. It's like any twist or turn could be explained by course correction.

I can at least understand where course correction could happen back in the 1970s (although I dont agree) but I dont see how it is even on the table in the present time. The future is unwritten, in the present time. There is no course to correct. The correct course will happen anyway.

@jenn3 - no you were helping, imho... thanks! But I think it's weird to disregard what Widmore and Eloise and the like say - there must be a reason for it (like Locke and the shoes...)

The fact that Widmore said it decades ago is exactly what the writers want us 'to know' that there is course correction.

I just think I can fit my theory into course correction (if I had to) because I think the Oceanic crash CHANGED everything that was 'supposed to be.' And this island and its inhabitants have been trying to fix things since.

But that's not what others believe - and that's what makes Lost, Lost.

@billy - then you are saying everything is predestined (this is Mr. Factual's theory), and I have said, and will say again...

I cannot believe that. It isn't how I live my life.

I find predestination an easy out. There's no reason for free will or anything because except for a blip or two, it's gonna happen.

I don't believe that.

@ fanolost - Oh good. I was feeling kinda bad about that, but I will stop now. I'm on the fence but leaning toward course correction and your school of thought on the time traveling. I think that Desmond knew he was changing the future because he had the visions, but getting back to the fate v. free will discussion from a couple weeks ago...most people wouldn't know that they may or may not have changed the future and that a course correction would be needed.

Des wouldn't have known the first time if Eloise hadn't taken him out of the jewlery store and told him. It was that experience that he worked off of when he kept saving Charlie. IMO...

@fanolost

Eloise explained that Desmond could not change the future (when he saw how the future would turn out). I completely 100% agree with this statement. Note that Sayid saw Ben in 1977 and thought he could change the future. He tried to kill Ben, but he didn't. If you want to apply course correction here, you could say that island moved Ben so that the bullet didn't pierce his heart (I would disagree, but it would be a sensible argument to make).

But you also refer to something Widmore said? Are you referring to him speaking of Alex's death?

If her murder was course correction then A) Ben would have had to see into the future and see her death and B) acted to stop it for 16 years until Keamy came along and did it.

None of those things, as far as I know, happened.

@fanolost

1977 is a flashback. The only difference is that our "present" characters are there and that they have knowledge of the future.

Do you have issues with predetermination when we see Kate, Jack, Ben etc doing things that led them up to being on the island?

@jenn3 - Des's free will ... trying to help Charlie - and he did, for a time. (Oh and because I have no life, I saw Des and Cesar on tv shows this weekend...)

Of course, Eloise was manipulating the heck out of him. Widmore has manipulated, Ben... Richard... the islanders do this... the DI were but pawns. The Oceanic survivors may be just pawns in a bigger game we don't know about as yet.

It's a big game of Risk - I'm tellin ya...

And now Christian seems to be one of them and is manipulating ... and maybe Locke is starting too...

@ billy - not trying to gang up on you here, really I'm just interested in how you are thinking about this, b/c its different than how I am.....applying your theory, how would you explain Des buying the ring anyway. Wasn't that different. Eloise said No you DON'T buy the ring. However he did buy it, changing the course?, but ended up not giving it to her and throwing it into the river, correcting the course?

..... just thought of something... before people were talking about Des being special and thats why he remembered Faraday knocking on the door of the Hatch...and that other people wouldn't have a memory. What about Penny waiting for Des to call on Christmas 2004? Disclaimer - I might not have summarized that discussion accurately.

@billy - what is all this 'seeing her death' in the future? I'm not understanding your 'vision' idea...

I don't think what the 06 did led them to the island - you and I and Mr. Factual do not see eye-to-eye on this so to discuss further isn't going to change either of our minds.

As for Alex - the FACT that Widmore said the island will do this - whether or not the island did - means that the course correction is a KNOWN piece of the puzzle for islanders. That being the Hostiles/others/indigenous. Of which Ben and Widmore are members. And Eloise.

I don't believe DI or the O6ers understand this because they are intruders/foreigners ...

If you apply course correction to the present time on the island, then you do believe in a predetermined future. Because what you are saying is, that whatever the characters do now, the island can change the outcome. It can "course correct" to ensure that what is supposed to happen, happens.

I do not believe this. I think that, in the present time, the characters are what changes the future.

I see 1977 as a flashback. When we watch the normal flashbacks, we know that X has to happen to our characters to get them to where they are in the present time and none of us has a problem with that. Does 1999 Kate have to kill her stepfather? No, but she does and that eventually brings her to the island. The only difference with 1977 is that some of the characters ALSO know the future. Does that mean that Sayid has to shoot little Ben? No, but he does and that eventually creates the Ben that we know.

Im not telling you what to think, but asking you...for a minute. Think of 1977 as a flashback. It makes a lot more sense if you stop thinking of it as the present. All of the problems with destiny and fate are erased if you realize that we are seeing WHAT HAS HAPPENED and not what is going to happen. Our characters can make any choice they want, but the choices they make in 1977 are what has led us to the circumstances of the present.

@jenn3 - if I'm not mistaken - Des is a big exception so to use his stuff as example will likely not pacify Billy.

I could be wrong.

It's all quite interesting - how we watch the same thing, but internalize differently. Kinda like being a DI or Indigenous or Lostie... ;)

@billy - I see where you are coming from but I don't see it as flashback - I see it as they got dumped in the past and this might change the future - which is why the island needs to course correct...?

I think in order to keep world order - the island, because of its unique properties and time shifts - MUST correct what free will and outsiders do to CHANGE what 'is' and 'was' on the island.

Holy moly, did I just say I need course correction?

@fanlost

This is what I said about Alex:

If her murder was course correction then A) Ben would have had to see into the future and see her death and B) acted to stop it for 16 years until Keamy came along and did it.

What I am saying is, that unlike Desmond and Charlie, Ben did not see Alex die and then act to prevent it. Desmond interfered with fate and opposed it. Ben simply decided not to murder a baby. Big difference.

Just because Widmore made a comment like that, I don't think it means that her death 17 years later was "meant to be". It makes absolutely no sense. Let's say it was meant to be...then she would have died very soon after Ben saved her life.

Okay...if you don't mind, I have one more thing to say and then I will shut up...I'm hoping you are feeling like this is a discussion and not argumentative.

I get what your saying, but then I have trouble when I think about the Miles and Hurley conversation, where Miles says this already happened for the DI, but its the first time for us....and then he asks Hurley to shoot him:

Okay, here is another transcript discussing what I just typed above, but now I am more confused... I see where billy and Mr. Factual are coming from now, but its the last part that throws me off.

HURLEY: Let me get this straight.

[Miles is pacing.]

HURLEY: All this already happened.

MILES: Yes.

HURLEY: So this conversation we're having right now...we already had it.

MILES: [Claps his hands] Yes!

HURLEY: Then what am I gonna say next?

MILES: I don't know. [Shakes his head.]

HURLEY: Ha'! Then your theory is wrong!

MILES: For the thousandth time, you dingbat, the conversation already happened, but not for you and me. For you and me, it's happening right now.

HURLEY: Okay, answer me this. If all this already happened to me, then...why don't I remember any of it?

MILES: Because once Ben turned that wheel, time isn't a straight line for us anymore. Our experiences in the past and the future occurred before these experiences right now.

[Hurley's face tightens in confusion as he thinks, Miles stares at him.]

HURLEY: Say that again.

MILES: [Pauses in exasperation and pulls out his gun and holds it out for Hurley to take.] Shoot me. Please. Please!

HURLEY: Aha! I can't shoot you. Because if you die in 1977, then you'll never come back to the island on the freighter 30 years from now.

MILES: I can die because I've already come to the island on the freighter. Any of us can die because this is our present.

HURLEY: But you said Ben couldn't die because he still has to grow up and become the leader of the Others.

MILES: Because this is his past.

How can you believe in free will and course correction at the same time? They are polar opposites.

@billy - first off, I never said Alex's death was meant to be.

Ever.

I said that because Widmore makes reference to course correction regarding the baby - that the writers are telling us this.

And why not have the kid live years? I don't see why there is a 'time limit' on when the course corrects.

And I totally don't agree that free will and island course correction are polar opposites.

The free will is mucking with the world order - in that by going back to the 1970s the losties are CHANGING what we all know to be the present (think Back to the Future) so the island must COURSE CORRECT in order to keep the world 'as it is.'

This is not opposite - this is the island - because of what it is - making sure the present isn't mucked up by the time shifts on island.

And it's been happening for centuries this way. IMO

@jenn3 - so you agree that the 1970s is not a flashback? Or you do? Confused...

I think, if I remember correctly from the last time we had this discussion is that the theory re: free will and fate together is this:

There is an outline of how life will go = fate

However, as human beings, we exercise our free will by adhering to the outline or as Des did when he bought the ring (I know he is special, but I can't remember the nonspecial examples used before) = free will

Des throwing the ring in the river, sailing to the island = course correction to get us back on track with the fate outline.

I'm sorry billy, but I am bored at work too :) however, I think I am making things more convuluted. sorry everyone:)

@billy - I believe you believe that the O6ers MUST time travel in order to make 'today' what it is.

I don't think that. I think the time traveling has altered what 'is.'

@jenn3

I am not getting angry...but I do get excited and sometimes it might sound like I am mad, but this is all in good fun.

If you think of it as a flashback, it works out fine. Where you (and I) run into trouble is trying to think of it as the present. Then we think, well, they could kill Ben, they could kill Richard, they could do all of this stuff to change the future. What Miles is saying is, yes we could...but we don't. Sayid proves this point by TRYING to change the future. We all know how that turned out. But if we look at it as a flashback, we see, oh yeah, Sayid shot Ben, the Others saved him and thats how he became their leader, then we have no problems. It doesnt mean that the Losties dont have free will. All it means is that we (and to some extent they) know how their exercise of free will turns out.

@jenn3 - STOP APOLOGIZING... none of us has the answers so no one theory is right or wrong - they are just different ideas being thrown out... ;)

@ fanolost - don't think it is a flashback because Miles says:

MILES: Because once Ben turned that wheel, time isn't a straight line for us anymore. Our experiences in the past and the future occurred before these experiences right now.

I've confused myself!!!! I was just trying to say that I kinda get both theories, but maybe I actually don't.

I'm the one that used Alex's death as a possible example of course correction.....

sorry fanolost - I just felt like I was trying to work it out as I typed and that it was causing confusion. Wasn't apologizing for my opinion/question. just my disorganization. :)

@jenn3 - using Alex's death as course correction could be ok. I just look at the words of Widmore - and whether it was or not, it's something Ben must live with - and it proves that this idea has been around.

I don't think the 1970s is flashback either - which is why Billy isn't happy with my theories.

But my theories work for what I believe is happening. With subtle adjustments on Thursdays... HA

fanolost - please disregard the last "sorry" shoulda proofread.

@fanolost

I do believe that the Losties appeared in 1977 before everything that happened after that occurred. So yes. That is true. So we can agree to disagree on that. :)

Lol it 2 PM on the west so I am going to lunch. I will be back and bored as ever later and Im sure I will have much discussion to read.

@jenn3 - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Your ideas are good... now go home and think up some more for tomorrow!!

@ billy - enjoy your lunch.

bily and fanolost - I'm leaving work now, but might be back, this was a good back and forth between apparently the only 3 people here today!

I guess I was a little Faraday like with my organization today!

just one last thing...

i understand the concept of course correction in the past. The losties are not supposed to be there, so destiny is playing games to make sure that everything happens the way we saw it happen/the way it is supposed to happen. That eliminates free will entirely, but it is a valid idea.

course correction in the present doesnt really work unless we (or someone) knows how things are supposed to turn out. in this case, it also obliterates free will.

sorry if i seem to have having this last word before i run off to lunch, but you can yell at me all you want and i will be back in a little bit to read your last words :)

@ billy, but when Eloise told Des about course correction when he bought the ring, it was the present time (although we saw it as a flashback)....... hows that for the last word! HA HA

@billy - the island knows - who that is? Aliens? Those who have been before? I keep saying it's a cycle...

I might have to stop saying it, but not yet.

Good discussion, IMO... thanks you two!!!

@fanolost

So this is where you are losing me. On the one hand, we have Desmond seeing Charlie die in the future and he intervenes. Destiny course corrects and kills Charlie another way. Desmond sees this too and intervenes again, causing a cycle until the inevitable happens. We have X sees future and tries to change it, Y corrects the changes. The net effect is that the outcome remains unchanged.

On the other hand, (as you are saying), we have the Losties interfering with the future. The Island doesn't approve, so it course corrects and makes things happen the way it wants them to happen. X does not see the future, but changes it unknowingly, and Y (in this case the island), corrects the changes.

I guess I can understand that now that I typed it out that way. But...it means that any action the Losties take can be undone by the Island.

It just seems kind of lame to me. I don't think of the island as being all powerful like that . I know it has power, but it isn't godlike. It told Ben not to kill Locke and to follow Locke, implying that Ben has a choice.

Idk. Im bored at work again. Hopefully someone else is out there. :)

oops, that was me.

one thing thats been on my mind...if locke really is smokey like some of us think then when alex tells ben to do anything and everything that locke tells him to, isnt she in reality instucting him to follow the island itself, not locke? not really important i know, but i have a feeling ben is going to find it hard to take orders from locke not knowing its really the island telling him what to do like always.

@ buttercup - Yes! I totally agree, but I think listening to Locke/smokey (if this is right) is the same as listening to the island. The island/Jacob spoke to Ben and thats partly why he was the leader

billy - are you still at work?

I am still here...for a little bit.

I do not believe that Locke is really the smoke monster.

When we see dead people, I believe that they are manifestations of the mind. I am not saying that they aren't real, but I think they are more illusion based than based in the physical form. Locke is interacting with more than 1 person, so I don't think he is an illusion.

Of course, I could be wrong.

But there would be something kind of nice about Ben following the orders of the Island though the face of Ben. I do like that idea.

@ billy - I agree that Locke is more than an image...but so was Alex. She grabbed Ben and slammed him against the wall. Ana Lucia touched Hurley's car. Christian held Aaron. So I can't be sure one way or the other yet. But I do think that Ben lied to Sun re: he didn't know this would happen to Locke. I think he at the very least suspected it would, so that suggests that Locke isn't Smokey because Ben would know that?

previously there was mention of faraday's notebook and pages from it in ben's office. i don't remember anything except the map of the island with the temple on it and a piece of paper that had
Real Time
Imaginary Space
Event A
Imaginary Time
Real Space
Event B

I don't recollect it being Faraday's or not - just that it was in a file folder in Ben's desk that caesar nonchalantly thumbed through.

all the course correction stuff gives me brain cloud

i just take it as miles states...previous events took place before/after and time has been bent yet progresses...

was the psychic and eloise connected somehow?

sorry i meant were

i have lived in southern indiana too long - my apologies

something i noticed on lost. despite the treachery they have impeccable manners for the most part.

always saying excuse me or using it as a way to avoid or deflect. smoke and mirrors

i don't think locke is smokey either. i just don't think it would suit the show well. he's in touch with and working in some way for the island, but i think he's his own separate weirdness. i could be wrong but until now he seemed like the only person to have faced smokey directly and survive.

i love how mellow he is now, especially after all the pain and self-doubt he's gone through. he's now jedi-mind trick locke. it doesn't even seem smug to me, even though he was sticking it to ben. that dynamic was great.

the greatest hits of alex scene was suuuuuper corny, but i always thought the way she was taken out was rather heartbreaking so i'm glad to see that hottie back in the show, even if it's briefly. smokey is definitely playing ben. and what's with the drain? a magic drain? fail.

overall great ep, though.

it's also going to be interesting to see jack truly take on his shepherd role. i think we're going to see less self-doubt in him as well as time goes on. he was a leader, they broke down his character and i think he's going to emerge as an admirable badass who will be enjoyable to watch.

maybe locke will be to jack as richard has been to ben and other leaders. i have nothing to base this on but i sense a showdown between alpert and locke down the road.

maybe there's a yin-yang thing between anubis and smokey. they're intertwined, but they're not necessarily the same thing. anubis is endless, like richard, and smokey is the antagonistic force, like widmore, or ben. one's the deep silent ocean and the other is the tsunami. both are always trying to purify the island. now the island is seeking new people, through 815, to take on these roles.

we need another hurley focused episode but i'm looking forward to the miles-centered one coming up.

@Jenn3

im not sure what to say about the "walking dead." its one of the few things that i cant logically explain to myself. removing locke and christian, every dead person that has appeared, has only appeared to one person at a time. yemi, alex, horace, walt, libby...i cant think of anyone else right now, but when they appeared it was always a one-on-one thing (im im wrong about that, let me know). that tells me that their appearance occurred in the mind.
yeah, alex roughed ben up, but who is to say that wasnt all in ben's mind also?

locke and christian have interacted with more than 1 person at a time. so they are beyond mere hallucinations, in my opinion, which to me means they were somehow revived and are real human beings.

i don't think the show is about the island as much as it is about the people on the island. for that reason, i kind of don't want to buy that the smoke monster and/or the island is all powerful, can control the dead, can change fate. it just makes the show less interesting to me. it can be a great influence, sure, but ultimately its the characters that drive the show. so for that reason, to me, locke is real and alive (that thinking might also show you why im against the course correction thing as well).

Both Shannon and Sayid saw Ghost Walt images, which led to Shannon being shot. But Walt isn't dead. I watched that episode yesterday and took note cause Shannon asked Sayid if he saw Walt too and he did.

I went on a mission to find the episode with Shannon and Boone and the smoke monster. Yes, I know I willing watched a Shannon episode! Locke tied Boone up and left him in the jungle. Boone heard Shannon and went to save her from the monster. It got her, threw her up, slashed her and left her in a pool of blood. But it wasn't real. It wasn't Shannon, but Boone really lived it and even held her dead. Just thought this was important because like Walt, Shannon wasn't dead when smokie conjured her for Boone. But Boone was the only one who saw the smoke monster Shannon. I miss Boone.

@ambrosia...

i miss shannon! :) lol but good research. so i guess that means that the island/smoke monster can conjure up more than the dead. its still possible that boone only thought he was holding her dead body (and we saw what he was seeing), but since 2 people saw walt at the same time, that does hurt my theory that it is completely in the mind.

i dont know if any1 metioned this ( i only read the first 400 comments lol) but what if vincent has something to do with the statue, ive heard theries of vincent being jacob but if the dog time travelled oo, then was out of range or something and got stuck in an earlier time

@Billy
Maybe it's like in the movie "Sphere" where things that people experience in their dreams become physically real and appear to more than one person. I think that smokey illusions are a physical representation of one person's mind that can be experienced by a group of people (which would give a lot of power to the person who is able to control smokey... Jacob, Richard, Christian, Locke?...)

@lostintranslation- there were two posts by Laura at around 8:45am yesterday that theorized smokies as a being composed of materials influenced by electromagnetism. We know from the Swan's orientation film that the DI was studying telekinesis or psychokinesis and the effects of electromagnetism to enhance those abilities. To put a little science to your "Sphere" reference, couldn't the subconscious (id) of the Losties be influencing the shape and appearance of smokie. So smokie appears to Ben as Alex and to Mr Eko as Jemmi. Also the punishment that smokie deals out could be influenced by the condition of the person or persons it faces (i.e the fear that Keamy's team felt induced smokie to be a "punisher" dealing out justice after Alex's brutal assassination. Smokie passes over Locke the first time he encounters him (Locke at the time being embued with a sense of being one with the island) the second time, he is going thru his usual Locke in self-doubt mode and smokie's reaction is less than friendly. Ben goes to smokie for judgement, smokie reads his subconscious, determines what he has done is best for the island (including sacrificing Alex) but warns him not to interfere with Locke. Again, an entity charged with electromagnetic particles, influenced by the subconscious minds of humans on the island (telekenesis.) Gotta run!

Congrats to Josh Holloway -- he's a dad to a little girl, Java? born 4/9 -- didn't even know his wife was preggars, must have been a secret

LOL "Java" what kind of name is that for a baby......"Hello little Coffee, how are you today?

@victoria - brain cloud... HA i use that excuse often... no one gets it...

@Billy - I thought I was in a Trig or algebra test for a sec!! I'm sorry you think that it's lame... but... when I say 'island' i don't know if I am talking about terra firma or the group that is on the island... if that makes sense. But because the island has a different set of times/rules, etc. - 'it' must correct free will actions or else the world will be affected.

As for the dead as living - because I also believe in the cycle idea - and that the souls from the past are regenerated into bodies - I totally believe that Locke, Christian, etc. are flesh and blood, maybe Alex too - though that may just be a monstah illusion... don't know yet cuz we haven't seen Alex out of the redemption scenario as yet (and may not).

@lostfan#815 - no secret - that his wife was due was out in the tabloids months ago...

@ Posted by: billy | April 13, 2009 06:16 PM

Yes, it does make it clearer why you don't buy into the course correction stuff. I really like that you, fanolost and Mr. Factual are so steadfast in defending/explaining your positions. I can't make up my mind, but I am leaning toward fanolost's theory/analysis. For some reason, its easier for me to wrap my brain around.

@ ambrosia | April 13, 2009 07:35 PM
I thought that Locke drugged Boone and that he had a hallucination... Your comment above almost makes it seem like Locke had some control over Smokey....but I will defer to you since you just watched it.

good morning fanolost! looks like its just you and me. Everyone else