The Lost Diary

I don't know if I can wait 7 months for an answer.

ugh!

Awesome episode!! I've been waiting since last night to find out what happened. So all you smarties out there, please start filling me in on all of my questions!

LOVED ROSE and BERNARD (and Vincent) in their "retirement" -- and Rose really talking them all down and taking them to task. great writing & acting

always good when ROSE is involved

No DESMOND ..... that was disappointing, and I wonder how he will come back into the script & the island

as far as the "fade to white" at the end---I think that is supposed to let us know there was a "flash" when the bomb went off

Wow! So early. Thanks Daniel!

Widmore has somehow made himself look like Locke. The only one who could kill Jacob was the leader, so he tricked Ben into doing it. Ajira people were recruited by Jacob, because he knew he was gonna need some help. Remember, he said to Widmore/Locke, 'you finally found your loophole.'

Daniel, I have to say that I completely disagree with you and am very disappointed in your rating.

I think when Jacob said "they are coming" right before Locke kicked him in the fire...he meant Jack and Co. Not Ilana and Richard. Good Vs Evil

BB-- I had the same thought. Maybe everyone was sent to 2007 when the bomb exploded.. Although Richard DID say "I watched them all die" so who knows. !

For me, this was the best episode so far. All season it just didn't feel like Lost to me and the finale finally brought that feeling back....maybe it was Rose and Bernard :-) Now I'm wondering if Jacob can really die or if he will just come back in a different body too? And how exactly does that work? It's not re-animation as Locke's dead body is still there. Was Christian also this guy?

Ahhhhh so many long months to go before we get answers!!!

The Ajira people are the same people that pulled up next to Miles in the van and tried to convince him not to go to the island for Widmore.

My Questions:

Where is Claire? IS she dead? We saw her in the cabin with "Christian". This guy inhabbitting Locke couldn't have also inhabbited Claire and Christian at the same time in the same cabin? Right?

And, was Jacob killed at the same time Juliet was trying to detonate the bomb? IF these two things happened at the same time, is it possible that the bomb didn't go off, but it was instead just one of those time traveling flashes that the island does?

"10:09 -- So Jack is doing all this for Kate? Puh-lease."

Actually, my husband's frustrated words were "So this whole thing is all about the P*ssy?" as he stomped out of the room. He normally doesn't say things like that (esp in front of me), but it made me laugh.

I totally agree with your grades on last nite episode. i too was let down overall. thanks for a great season of the Lost Diary

Made my day to see Rose, Bernard and Vincent, the wonder dog - such a sweet family unit! Thank you Daniel for your great postings on each episode - I will miss them till 2010. I also missed Desmond and I wondered why there was nothing to relate to Christian's and Clare's relationship with the island. Now to look forward to all the others who post here and their take on the Lost mythology. Such along time until 2010 and the final season of Lost!

I also disagree with your review. This was an A+ finale. The revlelation that Locke was not Locke and that it was all a long con to "kill" Jacob was eye-popping. And it's getting pretty obvious to me that the writers really do know how they are going to end this show, so the bomb at the end does not seem like a "Best of Both Worlds" style cop-out ending.

@Daniel, I kind of had the same feeling, not a big fan of the ending for a finale. But loved all the Jacob stuff along the way.

why is it when i watch lost it feels like i am watching a western? how many showdowns were there this season?

First question:

Who is good and who is evil?? Jacob vs. Other Man

Daniel, actually I thought Jack did CHANGE things - because if they didn't do the bomb thing, the electromagnetic pocket was wreaking a whole boatload of havoc on around the site - and likely, the island.

And that's what we find with the hatch.

Putting the bomb down there, could be the CHANGE.

JMO

what did bernard say to juliet??

OK people, "Beach Locke" and Jacob are like God and the devil. Jacob brings people to the island as playthings when he gets bored. Locke is tired of him doing it, and wants to stop him. He needs to find a loophole, i.e. get a mortal person to kill him. My brain hurts, but I thought it was a FANTASTIC season finale.

Also, I really think Jacob is the bad guy. Holy theological argument, Batman!

@ Lost is SOOO Good!:
Best I can tell is Jacob is the good (Hence the biblical name) and the rest of the losties are too....The ending will be some EPIC battle between good and evil....BUT i just feel theres STILL got be SOMETHING more then this plot..

Havent posted in a while but read every week. I completely with daniel this week. this episode was a great lost show, but for a finale lacked. It was slow moving and really had no great scenes. The biggest OMG was Locke in the box.

Jack doing this all for kate whom he will never meet if his plan works was lame.
I am surprised that it took so long for miles(or anybody) to bring up the point he made that basically was ignored.

@Lost is SOOO Good.

I got the impression that Jacob was good, looking for the best in humanity. While Other ("Archie") was bad, has given up on humanity and thinks they are a lost cause. Just opinion of course...

@Anonymous: I think he said, "Would you like a cup of tea?" I could be wrong though.

@ flashest - I knew Jacob looked familiar

And I forget who said it, but I thought maybe Claire was the real Claire telling Kate to keep Aaron away from the island and Archie, but it makdes sense that she was really Archie/Smokey.

@ fanolost
What if the bomb didn't explode in the ending? What if, bear with me, that happened at the same time Jacob was being killed and it just created a time travel flash? Maybe they all go back in time to when the BlackRock first came on the island or even before that?

Daniel - I have to agree though with the guns and Jack and others. How many rounds do these things hold? It's a tad unrealistic and something continuity folks should look into - it's along the lines of last week's sub dive (so fake) and smokie. Why the cheese-factor all of a sudden?

I think the bomb went off and they did change the past. I think the flight will land and all next season will be about either 1) how they ended up meeting each other randomly or 2) how they end up on the island anyway

Alot more good than bad for sure but I wasn't blown away.

Also, how about the Deadwood character being the bad guy (guy at the beginning/guy who inhabits Locke's body)? He was Swearengen's right hand man.

Loved it.

I meant the Deadwood actor, not the Deadwood character. Sorry.

@BeckyMonster :
I disaggree...Ben(the undead version) has to be the evil and jacob is the good...Cause if you notice, jacob visted ALL the losties, and they ALL turned out to be good and DO good things (Even bad boy sawyer) The only one who DIDN'T change was hurley...He was already good, not "cursed" as he thought...

Wow Daniel. I have to respectfully disagree with you. I thought the episode was fantastic. Lost always ends its seasons with big questions and what-the. That is what gets people talking.

@Mr. F

I agree with your idea of what was meant by the loop hole. Not a loop in time, but a loop hole of not being able to kill each other.

@lostwithlost - Sure, that's a possibility - but I still think it's a change.

Eloise said 'god help us all' if they didn't succeed.

They didn't succeed.

That's why the got separated by 30 years.

So I think whatever they changed they couldn't change successfully because not everyone came back, as they were supposed to.

But I do think things are different.

LOL Kate lost so many cool points for stealing a NKOB lunch box.
Solid episode. Jacob was creeping me out showing up everywhere.
What was the point of Juliets flashback with no Jacob, perhaps to show how doomed she thinks her relationships will be. Who cares!
FYI Juliet was a "real ride or die chick" & can shoot it out with the best. I a female but the fight between Jack & Sawyer should have been Kate & Juliet.
Spoooooookey "if this is Locke then whose in there"

Dayum daniell it's been fun, I too enjoyed the Prince concert. See ya in 2010

There have been WAAAAY too many shootouts...and, for a doctor, Jack sure can handle a weapon...

Also, I think Jacob will reincarnate as Charlie. Hence him giving Hurley the guitar case and Sun finding the DRiveShaft ring

@Alex:
Oooo..that would be an AMAZING plot line!!!

@kruxoli - I wonder if Jacob usurps Jack's body...

I think Jacob does something cuz he sure didn't seem too disappointed to be getting stabbed and burned.

Did nobody see Locke's eye like he just woke up right after the flash? Almost like a preview?

Obviously Daniel and I did not watch the show last night.

@Lost in la

The point of Juliet's flashback were the words she repeated to Sawyer that her mom told her about the divorce. Something about just because two people love eachother doesn't mean they are meant to be together. That is why she changed her mind about the bomb and wanted to change ever having met Sawyer.

I completely agree with you Daniel- great to see I'm not alone in this. The Finale was wildly underwhelming and minus a few stand out moments, I just didn't care for it. We've got one season to go and now, more and more questions. Desmond and Sun have also been quite underutilized this season- just a shame.

When jacob told locke that he found a loophole, he was referring to the new guy at the beginning of the show that told Jacob he wanted to kill him and that he wold find a loophole. Was disappointed not to see Desmond in the show , and what about Walt? I think he figures into it somehow also. Also if everyone dies on the island is supposed to die, how do the others from 1977 survive? Someone has to, cause the whole Dharma tribe winds up getting buried in a mass grave.

@alex - I was going on the theory of Aaron and Ji Yeon (right CAM???) being the next couple on the island after the Ben/Widmore thing is sorted out.

But - the guitar case really needs to be thought about - and I like the idea of Charlie coming back.

I cant believe Daniel gave this such a crappy rating, it was one of my favorite Season Finales of Lost! WAY better than Season 2...Season 4's wasnt great either.

Bernard asked Juliet if she wanted some tea...And she held her stomach and said no....I remember thinking it was a weird scence any thoughts?

When Jacob said, "you found your loop hole" to Locke in the cave at the end...he said the same thing in the very beginning of the episode on the beach to that other guy. When he Jacob said he brought the boat...they come, they fight, but it's prgress...the other guy says to Jacob, "you know, one day they're going to find a loop hole"...
Going on memory here, which sucks...but I think that's how it went!
Loved Jacob!

@ Fanolost:

Jacob usurped Jack's body? Did I miss something?

Another question:

Ellie was the leader of the Others in 1977. Does this mean that her son Daniel was meant to be the future leader? And WTF would Richard just keep listening to Ben and following him when he obviously KNEW Ben didn't know jacksh*t about Jacob? Jacob and Richard obviouly kept in touch so I'm sure RIchard knew Ben was FOS (full of sh*t). Yet he treated him as "the leader".

@Mr Factual- Thanks for the clarity on that. I was leaning that way last night. That conversation was way too vague, we need some more info, but I would agree, the same people can't continue to loop into the island. Different people trying the same thing, with the same results, I believe.

What do you suppose Jacob meant in his dying words, "They're coming!" Is he talking about the 1977 LOSTIES???

Posted by: flashest monk | May 14, 2009 06:52 AM

@Flashest, I agree the conversation was very vague. That is my initial impression of the loop hole, but I reserve the right to change my mind upon watching again.:)

As for "They're coming" line, can we widdle this down to two answers for debate? Either Illana and her Shadow group or Jack and his merry band of time travelling friends? I am not sure which way I am leaning here...

LOCKE has to be dead --- this is why RICHARD is so confused about how "LOCKE" could have come back to life.

The "Evil Man" (Archie) has taken on the persona of the dead on the island --- LOCKE, CHRISTIAN, ALEX and, yes, CLAIRE (who died in the explosion) so that he could manipulate all the LOSTIES to get to HIS ultimate goal---killing JACOB

JACOB also said "HELP ME" to LOCKE in the cabin to establish a link that would manipulate LOCKE to gather the people to return, but when that was done, LOCKE (like MICHAEL, and now JULIET) was able to die.

Loving JACOB .... along with DESMOND (where was he???) and RICHARD

OK, I've read this diary for months and months and have never commented. This is the thing that kept going through my mind as I watched the episode. First with Sayid carrying the H-bomb in his backpack and then when Jack had it...don't you think they'd be pretty careful about getting shot at????

@CAM,
I checked out your link to Destiny Found and thought the eye belongs to Kate. Doesn't Juliette have blue eye and Kate have green ones? The eye on the spoiler page looked green to me.

Great episode! I wonder what the significance of Jacob physically touching Sayid, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and Sun/Jin means? He seemed to bring Locke back to life as well... seems like a classic good vs. evil battle going on. The question is, is Jacob good or evil? Seems good compared to new John Locke as inhabited by the Enemy.

Jenn3 - It kinda looked like Juliet was prego. She held her hand over her belly in a way pregnant women do.

LostwithLost -
I agree. Richard seemed to play ben the whole time. If he never saw Jacob, sort of means he never was the true leader. And why isnt Richard leader material. I think its odd that he as gained all this trust from the island/jacob without being the leader. Richard must be the real leader

Well, I'm done with your diary, Daniel,because you are not as smart at figuring out Lost as I thought and I get more help on other Lost sites - where the people can actually figure out the storyline. The key, Daniel is in the first 3.5 minutes of the episode - the exchange between Jacob and the other guy. And it's in what Daniel said - they are not suppose to be on he island. Putting these two things together suggests a game changer. Kate's eye at the end suggests they wake up - but where? when? how? why? Game changer. Great episode. Bye

Was the flash the bomb or a time jump to 2007??!!...the ultimate goal of the bomb. Seven monhs is a very long time. Several of the other blogs are starting a "book club" of sorts, watch all the eps over those months and rehash each knowing all that we know or think we know as of now.

@blue eyes - you may be right, but the eyelashes were blond not dark like Kate's. hmmmm.... new character?

"We have to wait until next year to find out what happens."

I believe they call that a cliffhanger. Are you new to television watching :-)

Are we sure it is Kate's eye???

@suzanne

it's my theory that the flash was a time jump, and that it was caused by the killing of Jacob. I think those two scenes happened at the same exact time in different time periods.

What color were Jacob's eyes? I know "Archie" had blue eyes.

So Jacob personally involved himself with all the major players at some point in their lives. But we get no explanation as to why. What was special about these people? Just random folks? Can't be. Nothing is random on Lost. And while Jacob met most of them before they boarded the fateful Oceanic Flight 815, he met Hurley after he returned from the Island. Weird. Doesn't fit.

When Jack started the whole "we have to return to the island" bit what seems like ages ago along with Ben, they were quite insistent that EVERYONE had to go back. Well, Walt and Desmond didn't make it back. No consequences for that? So what was the big deal then about getting everyone?

I'm not 100% sold on the eye being Kate's but I really don't think it is Juliette's.

side note - if any of you want a good giggle, matthew foxwas on jimmy kimmel last night and they did a little short film. made me laugh

also, i agree that the loophole didn't refer to time looping but rather a loophole in the ability to kill

@kruxoli - I said 'I wonder...' if jacob usurps... You didn't miss anything...

But what do you think about the guitar, charlie, the ring - or because it's found by Sun, is it possibly more about the 'next generation?' And the couples

Jacob didnt seem to protect himself from Ben. He didnt look concerned that a man he manipulated for years was holding a knife two feet from him. He was also, present at some very important events of kate/sawyer etc lives. wouldnt he have been there or at least knew about lockes death. So he would know locke was really locke and would stop to ploy to kill him

@Lostin NYC: Wasn't it both Hurley and Sayid that met Jacob AFTER returning from the island? I don't remember Sayid meeting him before they landed there. When he met Sayid, him and Nadia were getting ready to celebrate their 1st anniversary.

@ Gregg - thats what I was thinking too, she did it the same as Ellie did in last weeks episode and it makes me flashback to her convo with Amy earlier on in the season.

re: the eye - don't forget that the characters' eye colors have been known to change, so I don't think we can go based on eye color

And why couldn't there have been a convenient flash, like when they were in the outrigger getting shot at.....

@ flashest and Mr. Factual - I totally thought the They're coming meant Ilana and crew, never thought about it being the 1977 Losties....

Oh and are we assuming that all former leaders of the Others have seen Jacob? We don't know if they have seen him or if Richard is the only one, do we?

Did anyone else catch how they insinuated that Jacob's nemesis "walked up there like he was Moses"? Both fake Locke and Jacob had this look when Ben said that. But I am completely and utterly confused as to what Moses would have to do with Jacob...

@lostinnyc - Yep. I posed the same query above regarding the fact that not everyone went back and eloise's 'god help us all...'

So while I think things have changed - I don't think they changed 'the way they should have' or 'could have' because there's this problem with who isn't around.

Remember in 'The Journey...' they said one of the reasons the Losties got separated in time was because not everyone was on the Ajira flight...

So Jack maybe should have been the savior of the day - but it's not gonna work so well...

And, I wonder if what they do in 1977 - impacts directly what happened at the statue.

I loved this episode. it did raise a lot of questions instead of answering but thats what keeps us tuning in. I have a feeling that Richard is alot more involved in this than he lets on. Could he have been the guy that Jacob was talking to at the beginning? What do we know about him? He is there from the beginning 0f time all the way through but how did he get there and why doesnt he age (like Jacob) and isnt he about the only one on the island who knows everything about Jacob? And what about Christian? Everyone keeps saying theyve never seen anyone come back from the dead before but didnt Christian do just that, or did he? Very interesting. Cant wait for 2010!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@leslie - +1. You have to suspend your disbelief at the end a bit... because the bomb did NOT blow up while Jack and Sayid were jumping around getting shot at, but (presumably) it DID blow up when Juliet *feebly tapped it with a rock*.

Unless, of course, this is a hint that the bomb did NOT blow up, and as some posters posited above, the flash was a time travel flash.

Suspension of disbelief is needed in any case. As anyone with a morbid curiosity (and a few minutes with Wikipedia) knows, it takes several tons of TNT explosive to cause a nuclear reaction in a nuclear bomb. Tapping it with a rock (or just dumping it down a hole) won't do anything more than contaminate the area.

@samiam - I did notice that and it made me laugh. flashest and I and I think someone else have been referencing Moses for a couple of episodes now with Locke saying My people My people, and leading them to the promised land...is the movie...The Greatest Story Ever Told ... flashest will know

@ Fanolost:

I wonder what the signifacance of the Drive Shaft ring will be...I also want to know what the deal is with the guitar...

Locke/Guy Who Wants to Kill Jacob: " I found a loophole that really rocks. I'll hitch a ride in your magic box." Really good episode. I think the series will boil down to a huge, knock-down, drag out,biblical-type, good vs. evil battle. Bummed that we'll have to wait until next year to see it unfold. Really enjoy reading the diary. Till next year.

Locke/Guy Who Wants to Kill Jacob: " I found a loophole that really rocks. I'll hitch a ride in your magic box." Really good episode. I think the series will boil down to a huge, knock-down, drag out,biblical-type, good vs. evil battle. Bummed that we'll have to wait until next year to see it unfold. Really enjoy reading the diary. Till next year.

I don't know about all of this??? I really think Daniel is on to something when he wrote that the writers really don't know what to do next. My fears are that after all this, we're really going to be disappionted at the series finale.

I think that that the reason Daniel never got bloody noses/ died of radiation is because his mother Ellie was exposed to it while she was pregnant. Richard mentions it to her.

@LostinNYC, I have the same questions right now, why exactly these people? Mainly the ones he visited prior to Flight 815. Why did he pick Jack, Sun, Jin, Sawyer, Kate and Locke? Then Sayid and Hurley after they left the island?

First time poster...
Did anyone else notice how with each flashback scene with jacob he made a point to actually "touch/make physical contact" with them?? I didnt notice this until the Jack flashback when he had the extra candy bar and this exchange was a bit more obvious. Could this be something to do with some exchnage of energy??

@ Josh:

Don't forget, Sayid rigged the core to "detonate on impact.." great job he did there...

i also think Juliet's words to Sawyer were meant as a commentary on Jack's motivation for detonating the bomb...if he never meets Kate, then he'll never know what it's like to lose her.

Daniel, I have to disagree with you on this one. Especially your comment that the writers don't know where this is going. I actually felt like this episode reintroduced some elements that affirmed my belief that this is where they were headed all along. You don't find the revelation that Locke was chosen, not because he was "special" but because he was easily manipulated interesting??

Ilanna saying Jacob had not been using the cabin wasn't enough intrigue?

The white title card at the end, indicating that everything we know is about to be turned on its head not enough of a cliffhanger? What all of this means is something I've suspected for awhile. We can trust any of the "guidance" the Losties have been given on the island. Especially by Alpert. The last several episodes that every bit of omniscience Alpert has shown was because of Locke's vague instruction and Locke himself was being guided by anti-Jacob. So, what is Richard's role in this? Yet another very interesting question, in my opinion...

I do agree with your complaints about the season. I think I've enjoyed it more than you have, but I see your point, that it won't stand on it's own as well as others have. As far as the episode is concerned though, I feel like you really missed a lot.

@Beckymonster -I am not convinced that Jacob is the good guy either.

I am already having LOST withdrawls!

This summer's homework assignment will be to rewatch every LOST episode from the pilot until this one.

For extra credit, time to pick up Stephen King's "The Stand" and read that as well. The ultimate battle between good and evil. With each side using people as pawns in this epic war.

Remember the episode where the Smoke Monster judged Ben?

Well, there was a heiroglyph of Egyptian god Anubis raising the Smoke Monster. Which means, that the Smoke Monster is the servant of Anubis. If the Smoke Monster told Ben to unequivocally follow "Locke" ("Locke" being the mysterious evil guy), could that mean that mysterious evil guy is Anubis?

What if they are two gods struggling for power? After all, when we were first introduced to the two men at the beginning of the episode, one was wearing black... the other white. Could they be Anubis and Ra, locked in eternal struggle? We know they're super-old and super-powered.

Jenn3
last night glee and I posted
Archie = smoke moster who can impersonate anyone who is alread dead. I think you were on the same page with this... But that would mean that Christin aka archie was manipulating Jake to go back... would that mean Jake would be working for the wrong side?

Maybe Juliet didn't have a Jacob flashback because she was not on "the list" from back in the day?

Notice how when Ben was going off at Jacob in the cave he was getting very upset. When he said to Jacob, "What about me"...Ben wanted an answer...he wanted Jacob to give him a reason NOT to kill him...but instead, Jacob said, 'What about you'? Which caused Ben to stab him...almost like Jacob knew he HAD to die to make things right again...

Question..
Opening scene...
Black Rock in distance
Jacob WHITE shirt
Other Guy BLACK shirt..
Good VS Bad
Ying and Yang

One cannot live without the other...even with a loophole...

did you see the first hour? damon and carlton explained a lot of stuff- including how every flash forward served a purpose. something i never thought about. but anothe rhting they said- which i thought was a total copout- was that the reason some of the losties were in the present and some were in the past was that they didn't recreate the crash exactly so they ended up getting seperated. that feels too easy for me. anyone else have thoughts about that?

i loved last night's episode! my lost group's theory is that the guy from the beginning is actually the smoke monster which is why he can take the form of all those who have died- alex, locke, christian, etc. he has to have been all of them in order to get his plan in motion....

First time poster, long time reader. Did no one notice that Jacob touched everyone of them when visiting??? What does that mean?

womanofscience, see my post 4 above yours.

@ Colleen -
At the beginning of the episode when asked why he doesn't age, Richard makes a comment that Jacob made him this way.

What if the guy that was in Locke is the man in the begining that said he wants to kill Jacob, and he found the loophole to do it. Thats why Jacob wasn't mad about it and still told him There are coming!

@Samiam -Yes, I noticed the Moses thing. I turned to my husband and said "IS he Moses?!?" At the end my husband was saying how he was kind of stunned with all the blatant religion in it, but really that's been constant. Remember the video in Room 23? "God Loves you as he loved Jacob" something like that?? Mr. Eko's scripture stick. The painting Ben was talking about in the church..if anyone over hear also reads Doc J at ew, I remember during Season 2 he had an article about the religious implications of the names Ben and Jacob. My recall isn't great though...I can't remember what the significance was.

Also I loved seeing Juliet with emotions and not so in control, finally human. I cried my eyes out with her and Sawyer! Her acting was amazing. But after all that, it was just a rock that made the bomb go off? Really?
Jacob touched the choosen ones- the variables/free will... But keep in mind we could see more Jacob flash backs next season.

POOR LOCKE, such a tragic life.

@ twistie - yes, I have been thinking that...here is one of my posts from last night

So does all of this mean they weren't suppose to go back, since Christian appears to be the other guy and the whole reason Locke died to get them to come back was because the other guy possessed Locke told Richard to tell Locke to come back and that he had to die....so he could take over his body?

I have been struggling with why they had to come back this whole time since Locke seemed to fix the problem when he turned the FDW

Kudos to everyone who thought the reason the bodies had to be buried was so their persona couldn't be inhabited!

Posted by: Jenn3 | May 13, 2009 07:42 PM

I don't think the bomb went off I think that that's what we are supposed to think happened. I thought when Miles saved his father there was going to be like a moment of clarity where they would all come to their senses and come up with a plan that doesn't potentially kill everyone via a H-Bomb. Sawyer reminds me of Tony on 24 this week "What do I have to live for" Alpha male breakdown on national TV. I like the Hurley Miles buddy movie spinoff that is developing very funny. I think that there is a lot to this story they left out that I was hoping to find out about. And BTW where the F is little Ben shouldnt his story be very important to this timeline, it's been what 3 or 4 weeks since Widmore was tucking him into bed??

Richard is becoming a Douche, and so is Juliet. They need to reveal what they know and what their up to or just be killed off. I'd like to see Chang, Miles, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Kate conference over Faraday's notebook for all future problems. No one of the remaining characters should be incharge of anything anymore the Island already has Locke as the Fascist leader. I'd say any questions about the Island itself geographically should go to Rose and Bernard they seem to have survived fine with no help or technology.

Widemore and Desmond I think will come to terms with each other and save everyone. I also think now as my final thought on this Terrible Terrible Finale that Aaron is the Child of Jacob some how or way.
I feel the way I felt after season 2 was over "I am never watching this stupid show again"

So if Richard doesn't age thanks to Jacob, would this imply that Richard serves Jacob in some way?

Maybe drawing off of that, we could speculate that "Archie" also has a servant in Smokey?

@michelle
Thats what makes me think more and more..That its the old Good vs. Evil power struggle

SuperRob -
I thought that the Smoke Monster visions Ben saw in the cave might have been caused by the same spirit who is inhabiting Locke's body. This would be another way the spirit was setting things up for Jacob's death.

I don't think the bomb went off I think that that's what we are supposed to think happened. I thought when Miles saved his father there was going to be like a moment of clarity where they would all come to their senses and come up with a plan that doesn't potentially kill everyone via a H-Bomb. Sawyer reminds me of Tony on 24 this week "What do I have to live for" Alpha male breakdown on national TV. I like the Hurley Miles buddy movie spinoff that is developing very funny. I think that there is a lot to this story they left out that I was hoping to find out about. And BTW where the F is little Ben shouldnt his story be very important to this timeline, it's been what 3 or 4 weeks since Widmore was tucking him into bed??

Richard is becoming a Douche, and so is Juliet. They need to reveal what they know and what their up to or just be killed off. I'd like to see Chang, Miles, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Kate conference over Faraday's notebook for all future problems. No one of the remaining characters should be incharge of anything anymore the Island already has Locke as the Fascist leader. I'd say any questions about the Island itself geographically should go to Rose and Bernard they seem to have survived fine with no help or technology.

Widemore and Desmond I think will come to terms with each other and save everyone. I also think now as my final thought on this Terrible Terrible Finale that Aaron is the Child of Jacob some how or way.
I feel the way I felt after season 2 was over "I am never watching this stupid show again"

michelle - when Ilanna said that jacob hadnt been living there, i took that to mean Christian (with claire) has been living there. which means locke has been receiving mixed messages on what the island wants or needs

@Samiam -Yes, I noticed the Moses thing. I turned to my husband and said "IS he Moses?!?" At the end my husband was saying how he was kind of stunned with all the blatant religion in it, but really that's been constant. Remember the video in Room 23? "God Loves you as he loved Jacob" something like that?? Mr. Eko's scripture stick. The painting Ben was talking about in the church..if anyone over hear also reads Doc J at ew, I remember during Season 2 he had an article about the religious implications of the names Ben and Jacob. My recall isn't great though...I can't remember what the significance was.

@Jenn3 Archie=Smoke Monster occured to me too. Especially after the epi where Ben's daughter showed up, it seemed the monster's agenda was not necessarily justice or redemption.

@GoodOmen

Yes--what I'm saying is, that Evil Spirit, the same guy that we saw at the beginning of the episode, and the same guy that has taken Locke's form (you say inhabiting Locke's body, but he's clearly not, since we SAW Locke's body--and as we found out "Dead is dead.")--is Anubis. and Jacob is Ra. Eternal struggle of Darkness vs. Light.

@ MLM:

Thanks! I noticed that as well, ties back into my black and white theme...I don't know exactly where it's going, but the writers seem to plug in black and white stuff all over the place.

@ LinJoe:

If that's Sayid's body in the Pit with Horace's jumpsuit on, I am gonna be REAL pissed...

Posted by: Kruxoli | May 14, 2009 05:35 AM

Something else just came to me..."Archie/FLocke" couldn't kill Jacob, so he got Ben to do it...When Ben first left the island and went to see Whidmore, Charles assumed Ben was there to kill him...Ben said "You know I CAN'T do that..." Why can't some characters kill other characters? Ben is perfectly capable of killing others...look @ what he did to Caesar, Jacob, he killed Locke twice, killed those dudes in the desert when he turned the wheel...

Posted by: Kruxoli | May 14, 2009 05:50 AM

I just have to say that Ben's facial expressions last night were off the charts!

What I am talking about in the 7:49 AM post was from last week's thread. Jacob is blond and wearing white..."Archie/FLocke" has dark hair and is wearing black...There's the black and white thing again...

@Jenn3, I agree Ben was incredible. Best line Sun asking Ben about the statue, and Sun says something like you expect me to believe you? Then Ben says "Not really" :)

Did I miss something? How do we know that the guy from the beginning of the show inhabited Locke's body?

Ok, I'm thinking that Bernard and Rose are Adam and Eve. That's been bugging me for awhile now..

I agree that the end was a flash and that since Jacob said they are coming, that he meant Jack and the rest. I think that if Juliet survives that she is pregnant. That Jacob knew Ben was going to kill him. He was almost taunting him with "what about you" and similar to Obi Won letting Darth kill him in Star Wars, Jacob let Ben kill him for some greater good.

@Freckles:

Towards the end, right before "Locke" killed Jacob, they mentioned finding the "loophole" they talked about in the episode opening.

@kruxoli - yeah, black and white, good and evil, hunter and gatherer, I just find this all too easy. I will be verra disappointed indeed if these folks write the series off with this kind of subpar writing.

@jenn3 - Ben is not finished, not by a long shot. I think he's just beginning another assault to achieve leader..

When Locke jumped out of the window and Jacob went up to him and touched him, it seemed like he brought him back to life.

I also saw the way Juliet held her stomach when she was talking to Bernard, like she was pregnant. Why would they throw that scene in just to have her die? I thought she would have been a little more important, since they haven't really told us much about her. (Like how she knows so much about the island, why Ben was infatuated with her, and so on..) What if she didn't die? Kind of like when Desmond turned the fail safe key.. the sky turned purple and there was a huge flash of light, but somehow Desmond made it in almost perfect condition.. except for the fact he no longer had any clothes. Just a thought!

@Asiram/SuperRob- I like Asiram's analogy of two angels (darkness and light, black and white) rather than two Gods. From a Biblical reference, Jacob successfully wrestled an angel before meeting his opponent/twin brother Esau and his army.

Secondly, in Room 23, we saw "God loves you as he he loved Jacob."

I never liked the analogy previously to the Sun God Ra. I do not believe these are "gods" IMO

I agree that the end was a flash and not Juliet dying...but still, they could have used Kate instead so we can at least THINK she's dead...

@Thomas - I agree that Richard and Juliet need to reveal what they know. Especially Juliet. She kepts saying all these cryptic things that made it seemed like she was an Other in the know..."Richard has been here a LONG time", etc.. NOBODY pressed her for the details. That always made me crazy!

@Gregg - Yup, I think so too. Ilanna is playing for team Jacob and I think she realized someone was in his territory. I am really curious as to what that piece of tapestry was in there. That seemed to be what convinced her.

Sorry for the double post all. Idiot first time poster, here!

@freckles

They don't people here just like to run with an idea they all agree with. I didn't feel like Jacob was talking to Locke as if he was they guy from the begining but that the conversation was more about jacob bring him back to life paralyzed. Locke would have preferred to have died under his own will of Committing suicide. Think what you want, Cam and Mr Factual know no more than the rest of us.

@Anonymous - I agree. Locke's eyes were closed and he was very still, but when Jacob touched him, he woke up quickly.

@Dana, nice pick up on the Obi Wan vs Darth Vader scene, if you strike me down I will be more powerful than you can ever imagine. I like it, nice.

@Kathy, I am with you on Rose & Bernard being Adam & Eve from the caves. Works out almost perfectly. Side note on them, Rose & Bernard seem to be the only people who have figured it all out. Why keep on fighting and for what, they simply embraced their love and live out their livees in peace.

@Jenn3, sorry, I have been trying to catch up with you all morning. Too much to read.

"WHO'S YOUR MESSIAH NOOOOW, MOSES"! (Edward G Robinson in the Ten Commandments as recreated by Billy Cristal in standup.)

@Michelle-the tapestry was a picture of the statue

I hear ya flashest! Thanks for the correct movie name. LOL

Josh - agree that it would take more than an injured Juliet knocking on the bomb to detonate it. Especially after all the bomb had just gone through and it didn't go off.
Don't mind waiting until next year cuz after that there won't be anything to wait for ...

@ Thomas:

I think that Jacob WAS talking to the "Archie/FLocke." Otherwise, why would he have said "You found the loophole." The loophole convo was from the opening scene...the real Locke never had any sort of "loophole" convo...

@Kruxoli- I agree with the gunplay. Too staged and overly dramatic. When Juliet and Sawyer jumped out of the van, they looked like Starsky and Hutch. Other than that, great episode.

@Daniel who wrote- "It feels like the writers don't have an answer for what happens next and they need the time off to figure it out." Gosh, dude, do you really believe that. I couldn't disagree with you more. Here they shift the paradigm again (they do this every season, have you been paying attention?) and you diss them. This is the most creative writing staff in the history of tv and you diss them as clueless. Really?

@thomas - Really? You don't think that Jacob saying "You found your loophole" was a direct reference to the conversation they had at the top of the episode where he said he wanted to kill Jacob AND that he was going to find a loophole to do it. I agree with you that we are all clueless about where it's going but I do think there's some evidence of what Cam and Mr. Factual are saying.

As soon as I saw how happy Rose and Bernard were it suddenly came to me - Adam and Eve! I'm sure they're the two skeletons found in the cave since they are now in 1977. After I went and did some research and saw that Jack found two stones with their bodies - one white and one black. possibly one mystery solved?

@thomas - Really? You don't think that Jacob saying "You found your loophole" was a direct reference to the conversation they had at the top of the episode where he said he wanted to kill Jacob AND that he was going to find a loophole to do it. I agree with you that we are all clueless about where it's going but I do think there's some evidence of what Cam and Mr. Factual are saying.

@jenn3 and FM - are we going back to Selznick? HAAHAHAHHA

But it is looking rather like we are heading in the direction of bible and/or good vs. evil.

I'm hoping not. I hope the writers can still continue to be 'who they've been' and write something a tad more interesting...

@Kruxoli I thought that Ben made a comment in a past episode that he couldn't kill anyone while on the island. That's what has me perplexed about the Jacob scene last night. Am I remembering this wrong?

@Flashest monk:

Well, they HAVE established all the Egyptian imagery, already establishing an effigy of one Egyptian God (the statue--Tawaret, god of pregnant women/fertility) and heiroglphic of another (Anubis).

But, why does it have to be one or the other?

They could be Anubis and Ra and Jacob and Esau and Michael and Gabriel and whoever else you can think of. God and Satan...all those stories through the ages.

I honestly have NO IDEA what's going to happen!!! AH! I don't even know what to think or have some theory. THe only thing I know is that the bomb is an awesome explanation for the island's fertility problem, which resulted in Juliet coming to the island in the first place. It's like they show the island's history, not through flashbacks but through time travel, which is an awesome idea. It was totally unpredictable for them to do that.

Also, Juliet's "death" scene was so sad it made me cry. The first time since like, The Constant!

I was shocked when Ben killed Jacob JUST LIKE THAT. I was like "WHAT? NO!" because, well, it seemed to simple. So I guess Locke is the new Jacob and Ben was a phony all along? I think Ben was a big fat fake all along. Now I don't like him. He was always this smart leader, knew everything & all, but that up until the seond half of this season, when it started to show that he didn't know what was going on. I LOVED that.

OH, and WHAT WAS UP WITH LOCKE'S BODY IN THE BOX??? I DIDN'T GET THAT!!! That part like blew my mind in a way I couldn't understand!

@ fanolost - IDK, I just thought it was funny that we've been making Moses references and jokes on here re: lines from the movie and then last night they came right out and said Moses.

DISCLAIMER - I'm not saying that I think anyone is Moses __

Hey Danny Boy,

I used to love reading your take on Lost for last couple of years. However, this year you sucked! You took Lost nights off to play basketball or go to a game. WTF! And now giving this episode a "D", you gotta be out of your mind. Did u take the night off again and just BS this write up? This was a top 5 episode of all time. Tons of questions were answered...TONS! Great cliffhangers at the end also. You need to look yourself in the mirror and really consider hangin'm up. You need to start bringing something back to the table!

I want to point out the book Jacob was reading....everything that rises must converge and remember what he told the guy in black..everything up to the fighting is progress...progress towards what?

"This doesn't look like LAX." -Sawyer

HILAROUS

@freckles, it is not a known fact that the Locke we saw at the end is the same guy Jacob spoke with at the beach. But there are enough hints along the way to make the connection.

They discussed the possible loop hole for "Archie" to be able to kill Jacob in the beach scene.

We find out Locke is really dead and Illana and crew have his body.

Inside the statue Ben asks (fake) Locke and Jacob if they know each other.

When Ben kills Jacob, Jacob says something to the effect of it looks like you found YOUR loop hole.

To me, this gives me a strong belief that yes indeed the (fake) Locke we saw inside the statue was indeed the same man on the beach with Jacob early in the episode.

@Mr Factual and Jenn3- My vote for the identity of "they're coming" hinges on one simple thing. Timing.

The Ajira people were already there. On the island and had already arrived a the beach before that piece of info.

He gasps out that information right at the moment when everything was imploding in 1977 (I know, different pieces of time, but plot wise, it follows in sequence.) The phrase, "They're Coming" and then poor Juliet explodes the H-bomb.

I want to point out the book Jacob was reading....everything that rises must converge and remember what he told the guy in black..everything up to the fighting is progress...progress towards what?

Hey Danny Boy,

I used to love reading your take on Lost for last couple of years. However, this year you sucked! You took Lost nights off to play basketball or go to a game. WTF! And now giving this episode a "D", you gotta be out of your mind. Did u take the night off again and just BS this write up? This was a top 5 episode of all time. Tons of questions were answered...TONS! Great cliffhangers at the end also. You need to look yourself in the mirror and really consider hangin'm up. You need to start bringing something back to the table!

@kruxoli

I am not convinced that someone is inhabiting Locke's body, I'd like to think it's more along the lines of where Fringe went this week with "There is more than one of everything" Multiple existance such as the scene when locke told richard to tell him to leave the island. That to me seems like a point where they are touching on parallel worlds. Also in Fringe they spoke of weak points in the earth, I.E. Tunisia, Horace's basement, the donkey wheel, the hatch, maybe the whole island is a worm whole and there is no clear answer to who is who who is when who is where etc. And the big one How to everything. We don't know and this is also Science fiction! haha, I had a very Doctor Who of the 80's moment when the metal was being sucked into the whole and Miles from the Future saves his dad.

@ neshanicguy:

I don't remember that...He shot Locke and left him for dead in the Purge Pit...He told Whidmore that he "CAN'T" kill him...

@SuperRob- point well taken, doesn't have to be one select group of pairs. You are correct. Each religion has their light and dark figures. I agree.

@ Thomas:

Point taken...it's just that "loophole" comment...It makes me think that Jacob KNEW it wasn't Locke, but "Arche/FLocke..." Dunno, that's just my opinion...

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, as I havn't read all the posts, but the show is becoming very similar to the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, two twin brothers. One was loved by God and the other wasn't. What if the whole show comes down to being a chess game of biblical proportions of the two brothers trying to outsmart eachother. As in chess there are rules of course, in the show, Esau cannot personally kill Jacob, so he finds the "loophole" by being reincarnated (big in Egyptian beliefs) into Locke's body. Sorry for the rambling and the typos, but I was hustling to get that thought out.

The loophole was Christian Shepherd. He was able to come back from the dead, but Locke found out that Christian could effect events/people actions but not touch them. Basically the dead body being bought to the island allowed the body to be possesed on the island. THat was the other guys way of getting to Jacob.

Okay, so I have a few things about my favorite dead-ish guy.

Christian told pre-resurrected Locke Aaron is where he needs to be, right? Well let's say this is "anti-Jacob" possessing him, he wouldn't want Aaron around b/c there's a possibility he could grow up and do great things on the island for Jacob. Jacob came to visit Jack, so we know the Shephards are chosen ones.

BUT what if it really is Christian "working for" Jacob, he was a much more kinder man after his resurrection, not his typical drunk self. The reason he didn't help Locke turn the wheel is because he cannot physically help anyone, just guide them.

I personally refuse to think Christian is evil. I don't think my family Bible theory will serve in the long run. But I might still have a shot...
But then I do have a second, minor change to theory...I think Ray could also be representative of Esau (Jacob's twin brother) who has to serve the younger brother - which would lead to Ray's bitterness, then I would just "skip" the missing generation and continue on that Christian & the Shephards are descendants of Ray - always "serving" the older brother...Jacob.

I dunno, I just, somethin about that Shephard family...

PS Just approved 18 group confirmations. HOLY COW! lol. just woke up. sorry to anyone who's been waiting...

@ LostwithLost: I thought the same thing since there is a full season to go, maybe the flash was a time jump...maybe the island resetting to the beginning?

I agree with Daniel, weak show for a 2 hour finale. With 1 last season to go, the writers better not waste time getting next season underway.

In the beginning of the episode the dark other guy said he wanted to kill Jacob but he knew he couldn't (paraphrasing). I think the loophole comment by Jacob at the end was in reference to that opening scene and that other Locke had found a way to get around the "rules" of not being able to kill Jacob.

@ flashest - interesting evaluation, I thought of it as Ilana & Co. got there and spoke to Ricardos (Actually its Richard ha ha another good line last night) just as Ben had stabbed Jacob.

Well, they HAVE established all the Egyptian imagery, already establishing an effigy of one Egyptian God (the statue--Tawaret, god of pregnant women/fertility) and heiroglphic of another (Anubis).

But, why does it have to be one or the other?

They could be Anubis and Ra and Jacob and Esau and Michael and Gabriel and whoever else you can think of. God and Satan...all those stories through the ages.

Posted by: SuperRob | May 14, 2009 08:08 AM

I agree with most of what you said above, either Egyptian Gods battling it out, Angel and fallen Angel, or something to that affect.

But I repsectfully disagree on the statue. As the view lastnight showed the mouth/teeth of the statue and really starts to resemble Sobek instead of Tawaret, in my opinion. Far from a closed case here, but this is the direction I am leaning towards now. Thoughts?

@fanolost- Ten Commandments was Cecil B deMille, not Selznick. (I'm the guy who was referring to Vincent the dog yesterday as Victor? My clarity comes and goes.)

Moses, Moses, Moses!!!!!

@ Weiss:

Hmmm...So you're saying that "Archie/FLocke" realized that bodies could be brought back to the island and "reincarnated" but that they couldn't get involved physically? That's why he's gotta use ben to kill Jacob? Am I getting that right?

All along the smoke monster disguised itself as anyone in the island, in this case Mr. Locke, and used/played Ben all along. The real enemy is "what" has been the original resident of the island. Invaders provoked the monster and the wisest Jacob knew the truth...that's why he was the monster's target

ps anon @ 8:14 was me.

also, Jenn3, where did you get that Greek translation? Did you use an Ancient Greek Coin A or B translation? Or just straight up Greek? Because the Greek used today is slightly different.

@thomas - I think you have a point as far as inhabiting Locke's body goes. For awhile I made the assumption that all this "you have to die" stuff was so someone (didn't know who) could inhabit his body. Then they go and show us his body dead on the beach, which would seem to mean that Archie didn't need it? Also, at the point where Alpert and Locke were waiting for Locke to show up to get the bullet out of his leg, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't there be 3 Lockes on the island at that point? "Fake" Locke, Locke's Dead Body, AND Real Locke?? Time travel doesn't explain all of that, so I think you are on to something there.

Jenn3-
That's right, it was the imposter who told Richard to tell Locke he had to die, not Locke himself!!! Wow!

I think it is also important to note that Jacob was reading a Flannery O'Conner novel while waiting for Locke to come flying out the window. Flannery O'Conner's works are almost always about characters who are either in or out of grace with God. Those who are not in God's grace are usually killed. I am still working on how this connects, but I'm thinking it goes along with what many of you are saying -- that Jacob is like God and the other guy is like the Devil -- it reminds me of the Kevin Smith movie "Dogma" where the two castout angels have found a loophole to get back into heaven that will "unmake" God.

I don't think the writers are clueless at all.
I think they know exactly what they are doing and what they have planned for the last season. I'm sure they've known for quite some time what was going to happen when they announced when Lost was going to end.
Anywho, I enjoyed this finale SO much!
It sucks Juliet had to die though :( Why couldn't it have been Kate damnit!

And I really hope Real-Locke isn't dead. Or comes back or something.

All along the smoke monster disguised itself as anyone in the island, in this case Mr. Locke, and used/played Ben all along. The real enemy is "what" has been the original resident of the island. Invaders provoked the monster and the wisest Jacob knew the truth...that's why he was the monster's target

I don't know if this is a fight between good and evil. Smoky's job as Danielle tells us is to be a security system he is there to protect Jacob. Instead I think that Smoky is trying to overthrow Jacob because he doesn't believe that people have the intelligence to choose anything for themselves instead he wants to be a dictator. So the fight instead of good vs evil is between the power of people vs the power of those who govern them.

@Jenn3- I believe in Latin it would be "Ricardus"

I like how Miles has become the voice of the LOST viewer: (paraphrasing): Have you guys thought this thru? That Jack could create the Incident he is trying to stop by exploding the bomb!"

Its like Miles is reading this BLOG!!!!!! LOL
(wait a minute, has anyone ever seen Mr Factual and Miles in the same room???? HMMMMMMM. And all this time we though he was JJ.)

You know I was calling Locke "Moses" last week as he was leading the Isrealites down the beach (to some biblical marching music). Then last night he (or fakeLocke) was referenced as Moses. Guess they won't be wandering for forty years.

I got tiiiiimmmeeee, its on my side, yes it is.

Fallen, any one?

@Mr. Factual:

Well, either way, it's still an effigy of an Egyptian god.

BUT, take a closer look at Tawaret:

http://www.theoriesonlost.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/tawaret.jpg

She's got some sharp teeth.

You know I was calling Locke "Moses" last week as he was leading the Isrealites down the beach (to some biblical marching music). Guess they won't be wandering for forty years.

A stunning finale! It was everything I wanted it to be!!
I always go back & watch from the beginning when a season ends...I will be doing that this summer, for sure!

Daniel - Good review, as always!..and THANKS for the blog! It's a great place, (well most of the time LOL!), to talk LOST!
Just my thought about what you said at the end there...
The show already has an end, they know where it's going. They may change things up here & there, but I think wether or not the bomb goes off has already been decided! :)... I say it goes off!

It's a bit of a melancholy Thursday, but 6-7 months is really not that long! :)

@FM - I knew the minute I hit 'post' selznick was wrong... THANK YOU...

Christian is dead. Why isn't who we see as Christian none other than some islander using the body? As was shown last night?

I'm totally convinced Locke and Christian are, and have been, dead.

What's going on with their bodies - is nothing different than what we've been saying for months now regarding Amy's 'we must bury the bodies.'

It's all about reuse and usurp...

But 'Dead is Dead.' It's just the souls, spirits, entities - whatever, use the flesh...

Jacob wanted to die.....or at least didn't mind it. Think about it. He let Ben stand right in front of him with a knife (instead of moving back or grabbling a weapon). Then he tells Ben, "what about you?" after Ben's rant. Jacob knew that those words would set Ben off and likely get him killed.

I really put a lot of weight on Jacob's "flashback" scenes and who he DIDN'T visit (i.e., Juliet). If Jacob is "good," then all the Losties he "brought" to the island are "good." Ben and Richard are just caught in the middle.

My (growing) concern is that the show continues to open a lot of doors and beg a lot of questions that cannot ALL be answered. I worry that the SERIES finale will reveal a LOT of red herrings.

@Flashest, you caught me! I had to throw you off the scent with the JJ comment.:)

I got a laugh out of it lastnight when Miles said what I have been leaning towards for a while. Did they ever consider Jack causes what he is trying to prevent? Score one for Miles.

Good vs. Evil, but is Jacob the same guy who pee'd on the dude's rug with Woo? If so than he may be good with evil tendancies. Great episode

Well I give last nights episode an A. I am so sick of the haters who complain that it leaves you with so many questions etc..What would you like? Prefer they answered everything in season 2 and then we get to watch some other crap ABC tv show? Cmon now people! ITS AN AWESOME SERIES!

Ok so I cant remember the name of the game but I am sure one of you smarties can :) Do you remember when flight 815 crashed and Walt is playing backgammon (?) on the beach and Locke comes up to play with him? Well there are two things I remember...
1) Locke brings up the black/white factors of the game
2) Locke also tells Walt that he has a secret. Now I certainly have always thought it was the fact that he was paralyzed prior to the crash. And I think I still think that is what he meant. But with new revelations I suppose it could be something different.

wow - trying to catch up, this site is blowing up! Must have been a good episode, better than a B+ or a D.

So, remember when Ben's daughter was killed and he went to see Widmore? Well, They mentioned it being against the rules to kill each other, kind of the same thing as Jacob and the guy on the beach. Perhaps Ben and Widmore will become the new Jacob and guy on beach, OR they are Jacob and the guy on the beach??? Not so sure.

@SuperRob, thanks for the link, like I said I am simply back on the fence now. I was on the Tawaret side for a while, but last night made me reconsider some.

But as you said, either way it was an Egyptian statue playing into the theme going on.

@afieldwest- I agree that Jacob seemed to welcome his death. If you think of him as a proponent of Free Will (I'm getting this from the opening dialogue with his opponent). This would make sense. He is championing Bens right to make a choice. He is also flying in the face of his Opponent's rigid stand on things being destined to happen.

If you read my post this morning on dialectic thought, it makes sense. This is a way to create change, thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

Don't forget there was the Egyptian eye on the top of Jacob's tapestry thing, underneath the Greek words.

Here's my post from this morning on Dialectic thought on "Follow the Leader"

@fanolost- Your post on PAIRS got me to thinking about dialectic thought, things in pairs, on LOST- Good/Evil, Black/White, Faith/Science, Destiny/Free Will. Its kind of Philosophy 101. Seems like that is what you have with Jacob and his "Opponent" and maybe how LOST will come to a conclusion in the final season.

(From Wikipedia):
Dialectics is based around three (or four) basic metaphysical concepts:

Everything is transient and finite, existing in the medium of time (this idea is not accepted by some dialecticians).

Everything is made out of opposing forces/opposing sides (contradictions).

Gradual changes lead to turning points, where one force overcomes the other (quantitative change leads to qualitative change).

Change moves in spirals (or helixes), not circles. (Sometimes referred to as "negation of the negation")

Basically, change thru opposition. Thesis meets Antithesis, and results in Synthesis.

also, Jenn3, where did you get that Greek translation? Did you use an Ancient Greek Coin A or B translation? Or just straight up Greek? Because the Greek used today is slightly different.

Posted by: ssarah badara | May 14, 2009 08:18 AM

I didn't translate any Greek I copied the Greek letters from lostpedia...

I'm just really happy to meet Jacob and his frenemy. I thought the bomb went off, but my hubby isn't so sure. I mean why suck Juliet down a hole if she wasn't supposed to make the bomb explode. I don't buy this good/evil stuff everyone keeps talking about. I don't like it at all. Jacob can't be good imo cause he killed Nadia and was a douche to Ben. Not such a good heart, if he even has one. And the frenemy guy wants to kill Jacob, that can't be good hearted either. They are human in some form cause they hold grudges and have emotions. I don't think they are Gods either. We shall see I guess. This show is so convoluted and I don't mean that in a bad way. We have lots and lots of variables going on, or people who want to change things. I need to think some more about all of this.

Oh, I thought you had the words translated after it. I have the picture of the words too. Haven't even had a chance to translate them yet. LOL.

How can Jacob be good when he allowed/caused Nadia to be killed while Sayid looked on? Why is what he did for anyone he came into contact with "good"? His intentions with each one were probably purely self-serving.

Furthering my Anubis/Ra theory, here's a screengrab of Jacob's tapestry:

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/aee6864b67788b7f8330ec9c7a3703e2

If you look closely, it's rays of light emanating from the Eye of Ra, touching different people! Jacob/Ra reaching out to each of the Losties!

Here's an image of the Eye of Ra (god of sun/light/life) so you can judge for yourself:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ra_Symbol_(Stargate).svg

I kinda skimmed over the comments, since I'm at work and there is a million of them, but last night was not the first time Juliet has held her belly like she is pregnant. She also has done it in the last few episodes with her and Sawyer.

I think Jacob was not in the flashback with Juliet has something to do with the fact that she was an "other". I don't know what, but that's my feeling on it.

I will seriously miss Juliet, I think she was a much stronger, well-rounded person than Kate. I, at least, hope that Sawyer will morn the passing of Juliet (if he remembers her in the next season) and not just jump Kate first chance he gets.

I agree that the white flash at the end was another moment of time change rather than the bomb exploding. And yes, Juliet is still alive and pregnant, as well. Too bad no Desmond last night...

Quick question - can anyone remember if Flocke (Archie as Locke) has touched anyone since the Ajira Airways crash?

I would think that he must have, but perhaps Archie is not incarnate - he doesn't inhabit the dead bodies, but is able to take their form. The only person I definitely recall him touching is when he pushed Jacob into the fire (which I DID NOT like at all!)

@ssarah- If you don't comment on the dialectic above, I'm calling LSU and demanding a refund for this past semester.

Clair had warned dont bring him back to the island- was she referring to Locke? she knew this would happen.

Also, in season 6 can Lockes soul be saved? even with possession

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the actress who plays Juliet is pregnant. So they either had to kick her off so they don't have to cover her pregnant belly with strategically placed bushes all next season OR she is going to be pregnant next season. I'm leaning towards the latter since she made the overt pregnant-lady-belly-covering while talking to Bernard.

@flashest monk - that's interesting.

And still makes me wonder about those two kids...

Gradual changes. Well reusing bodies. So over time, the natural free will of some overtakes the other (like it took a long time to find the loophole to finish Jacob).

Changes like Juliet and the bomb - but the glitch that they didn't all get back to the island as they were supposed to.

Thus, this has caused another change - splitting the losties by decades...

Have I said it enough I was thrilled to see R&B and V?

flashest - I haven't had a chance to work on it yet! I left my dictionary in BR and now that I'm home, there are a few words I'm stumped on.

@flashest monk - I think there is a strong case for Esau as well. Also, I loved Miles commentary too. Someone HAD to say that-it's what everyone was thinking!

@Scott-san - I am wondering though, just because Jacob visited everyone does that mean he brought them all to the island? I guess what I mean is, was that his original intent or was he there cleaning up Archie's messes?

@Asiram- I do support your theory that Pet Cemetary Locke assumes the form rather than reanimates the body. I was puzzling over that this morning. How could you have two Locke bodies (one on the beach, one in the foot.) Only thing I could think of was time traveling (when Locke saw Richard give past-Locke the ratty-ass compass.) I like the notion that he is a shape shifter. Why only shape shift the dead? That I don't know.

And can we mourn a bit...this was the last season finale before the series finale :(

Of course Lostpedia beat me to it...

I knew I should have recognized it. IDIOT!! Lol. Oh well, that's what I get for translating The Iliad and not The Odyssey.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob%27s_tapestry

@ ssarah - nope, sorry, I'm not that smart.

Just wondering if Sayid did something to the bomb so it wouldn't go off.

@ssarah, I don't know if you got into Hegel, but for sure you studied Nietzche and the dialectic is one of the foundations of his philosophy. (also Socratic thought.)

I just thought of something this has all happened before why do you think out of all of the losties John is the only one who has been obsessed with the smoke monster (first question he asks Ben.. what is the smoke monster)because his subconscious has done this all before

Oh, and didn't Jacob also say the word "lost" somewhere in his sentence as well as touch those Losties.

Juliet is not Dead.

Jacob to Jack "Just needed a push" candybar=Jacob's influence on individuals. Also what Christian was doing in the OR.

Still think Jack sucks.
One of the few people on the island who could save Sayid's life and he's totally blind to it.

I just thought of something this has all happened before why do you think out of all of the losties John is the only one who has been obsessed with the smoke monster (first question he asks Ben.. what is the smoke monster)because his subconscious has done this all before

At least we no longer have the screwed up quadrangle of Sawyer/Juliet/Jack/Kate. They all pretty much partnered up with the right person in my opinion. But is Jacob really the father of Claire's baby Aaron? How do we know that? Has there been any backstory about it yet?

had an A-team flashback when the VW bus shootout began. Suprised there wasnt a doublecross shootout in a warehouse

Remember when Locke ran into the smoke monster seasons ago? Does that mean any more now? Discuss... :)

Ok, i haven't read all the posts so I hope i am not repeating someone's theory or whatever here. Someone, not sure who, sorry i can't give you credit, said what if killing Jacob actually created a flash? that was interesting, perhaps it did, I think that Sayid disarmed the bomb, but does that mean it couldn't go off? Perhaps Jacobs 'death' caused the flash and all the time stuff to correct itself.

My theory is this: if juliet successfully set the bomb off, which is what it looked like, then the losties will not land in LAX like they think. That year is not the year they should be in, they were all on the ajira flight so i think they will just be in the present and on the island.

Also, Jacob being the bad one is interesting too, because biblically, Jacob swindled his older brother, Esau, out of his inheritence and his dads blessing. Esau swore revenge but couldn't kill him until their father died, Jacob was quiet and stayed in the tents while esau was a hunter and remained in the wild most of the time. Jacob and Esau's cities were always in conflict and both of them were named 'prince' or 'ruler' of lands, Jacobs being egypt.

Ok, ALSO, I think this enemy orchestrated very well his efforts to get to jacob, he needed the body of a leader for his loophole, if the enemy was actually in the bodies of christian and locke then he told locke he would have to die to come back. My mind is boggled by last night's episode but as jacob said in the beginning of last nights episode, they come, they fight, it always happens, but eventually it will end. Or something like that.

@ Katie - but when Locke asked that it wasn't really Locke, it was Archie in the form of Locke @ least IMO

Maybe Archie just wanted to know how much Ben really knew.

had an A-team flashback when the VW bus shootout began. Suprised there wasnt a doublecross shootout in a warehouse

@ Mr Factual

I will take up this assigment of yours lol infact I just purchased The Stand last week with intentions of reading it this summer

Jacob catches a "Red Herring" uhm...

I think Juliet is dead, she HAS been wearing a red shirt for the past few weeks.

I think that next season will be like nothing we expect. The events of last night changed the game completely.

Introverting the logo is very telling. The writers know exactly were they want to go and I am excited to go on this ride with them.

I don't think that Jacob is dead quite yet. I think the bomb DID go off and I think that changed a lot of things. I don't think the bomb going off what fulfilling "what happened happened" because the electromagnetism we witnessed before the bomb went off was exactly what happened when they stopped pushing the button.

The bomb was a game changer.

@Jenn3
No remember when Locke was with Ben before the whole time skipping thin he asked Ben "what is the smoke monster" and Ben said there was no such thing so that was before Locke died.

A couple of notes I wanted to ask/express about the episode:

- When Bernard asked Juliette if she wanted a cup of tea, she touched her stomache, which usually indicates (on TV) she is pregnant. We know she is in real life, so either she will be pregnant on the show, or they just killed her off.

- When Jacob said "They are coming", I think he was refering to Jack and company. I think he recruited all of them and need them for this epic battle. In my opinion they are all going to flash to 2007 on the island and they will be critical to the epic battle. Looking back at the Chronicles of Narnia, the lion was stabbed and then brought back to life after the battle.

- I think the guy at the first scene talking to Jabob is the smoke monster/christian/Locke. He has been manipulating the events on the island. Ilana did say someone else had been occupying the cabin.

- If this guy was inhabiting Johns body, he manipulated Richard to tell John to go back and that he had to die to save the island.

- I think Clair is alive but being manipulated by this guy in the form of Christian, whos body he inhabited when he found Christians body.

- I think Next season will be the War, but who will be on Lockes side.

Just rewatched the beginning.........the scene with Jacob and that other dude at the beginning (good vs. evil)? Jacob in white, other guy in black??? Also, the guy tells Jacob that he wanys to kill him and that he'll find his loophole. Locke has to be that guy, not Widmore. Maybe this was posted before, but I thought I would leave it too.

@SakitSaPuwit

haha nice catch! (no pun intended)

@ambrosia - although I suspect Jacob probably is the good one I am not 100% convinced and like you said, the way he was to Ben was one of the reasons. I just thought it was weird they way they focused on his eyes and how cold he looked. I suppose you don't owe a lot of sympathy to someone who has come to kill you, but there was zero compassion there at all and it seemed like they made a big deal out of that moment. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that was my first impression of it.

@ katie - you are right. sorry about that, but I think he did ask again after the 316 crash.

QUESTION: WHO IS ARCHIE THAT EVERYONE IS REFERRING TO??? DID I MISS SOMETHING?

Remember when Widmore told Locke I don't know why Richard would tell you you need to die to go back, you need to be alive so that the right side of the war will win.

Well now we know that Archie infested Locke told Richard to tell Locke to die, Does this mean the wrong side will win now?

This is from Wikipedia about the statue of Sobek:
Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.
Sounds similar to the things that have happened on the island.

@afieldwest, "Archie" as in Arch Enemy of Jacob. He currently has no name, so some have posted some knicknames.

The guy in the black/dark shirt on the beach with Jacob in the beginning.

@ afieldwest - Archie is what we've nicknamed the other guy that was talking to Jacob in the beginning, b/c as you can see its a handful to type.

@michelle
I think Jacob ws cold to Ben because he was an example of how mankind has failed him again. Jacob saved his life and gave him the chance to be a leader but he missused that power and became a tyrant. My question is if they brought little Ben to the temple to be healed was Ben healed by Jacob or Smoky?

@M, excellent post and I had a similar thought when SuperRob and I discussed the statue above. It does seem like it could fit with Jacob from what little we know at the moment.

The statue on the island is that of Taweret. Taweret became seen, very early in Egyptian history, as a deity of protection in pregnancy and childbirth. The statue was destroyed and the complications with pregnancy started

Did they ever show the statue intact in the 70's?

Juliet at least, and potentially Jack, Kate, and Sawyer are about to pull a Desmond-post-key-turn and wake up naked in the jungle in the 'present'.

"They're coming."

Alos interesting to note regarding the loop hole required to Kill Jacob...Didn't Ben tell Widmore he wanted to killhim and Widmore told him that they both know he couldn't. I wonder if it is a rule or just not possible for a leader to kill a leader. Meaning, the other guy once lead the island and Jacob took control from him.

OMG - I just remembered in the summary of the podcast or some interview with DL and CC they said last night's episode would be a "touching" one and that didn't necessarily mean emotional.

I think everyone who commented on Jacob or Archie touching people is dead on (pun intened)!!!!

I agree with the idea that the bomb did not go off, or if it did, it offset the magnetic force and basically caused another flash like we had with desmond.

@lynn - i agree they will flash but to 2007 (ajira) not to 2004(oceanic)

That last annon 5/14 9:05 was me

@ilovelost (and CAM)

I know you are in DE-Nile (not just a river in Africa) but Juliet is DEAD!

ABC announced in March in Entertainment Weekly that Elizabeth Mitchell (juliet) had been cast in the ABC pilot for V, (a remake of the classic scifi television miniseries- its about clandestine alien invasion). Anyway, they insisted she was only a guest star. This morning ABC was talking about the new show as if she is THE STAR.

Sorry.

Jenn3-
Good catch, but was Archie "touching" people? I only remember Jacob doing it.

When Richard took little Ben to be healed he said he would never be the same and he would be one of them, wonder what that means???

Sorry 9:06 was me

Jacob and fakeLocke's relationship kinda reminds me of Cain & Abel from Neil Gaiman's "Sandman". they work in a library and Cain is forever getting pissed at Abel and killing him. But it is futile because Abel keeps coming back to life, and so the cycle repeats itself.

Off topic - I loved V when I was younger. I'm kinda excited they are doing a remake, but I'm a little scared that it will not be so good (see the new Knight Rider for example

@Achillyone, I personally believe the pregancy problem is a red herring, that it was a cause taken up by Ben and Ben only. Richard alluded to this when he spoke with Locke a while back. I wouldn't rush to conclusion so quickly yet.

@Dana, if I recall correctly the statue was down in 1974 when the island stopped skipping. And there was no sign of the pregnancy problem in the 70's.

Is it possible there are 2 statues or were 2 statues? The whole good/evil, black/white storyline might suggest "Archie" had his own statue at some point in time.

anonymous at 6:57? (i tink)

I think what Bernard said to Juliet... I think he was picking up on the emotional drama of the love triangle. He could sense she was struggling. I don't remember exactly what he said though.

@flashest monk
I am not in denial, I said that she is dead.

@ Dana - I got so excited about remembering that that I couldn't remember if Archie did. I don't remember that happening with Archie, although he may have touched Ben .... Does anyone remember?

Could "Juliet" do both shows? They are both ABC shows, and Lost would be for only one season. She wouldn't have to be in every episode. Maybe V will be filmed in Hawaii. :)

I just want to give a shout out to Smoky. Whom ever can manipulate the greatest manipulator of them all Ben deserves some respect.

Loved the episode. Can't wait until 2010. Here it goes:

I am thinking that Jacob didn't distract Sayid and then let Nadia get run over. I think he distractd Sayid because he was saving him from also getting run over. Like it had to happen.

What if "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" actually means the kind of "lie" as in: not telling the truth?

I thought (my husband disagreed) that Rose and Bernard's cabin looked like Jacob's cabin. It's possible the people who Ilana referred to as using it were them.

We now know why Dr. Chang never moved one arm in any of the DI vidoes.

When Bernard asked Juliet if she wanted some tea, I thought he was trying to keep her from going with the group as if he knew what was going to happen to her.

And, corny or not, I yelled out loud with joy when Jin and Hurley showed up at the last second to rescue Jack and Sayid. :)

sidenote: did anyone see that "penny" is in that new show flashforward?

I'm not sure the losties, if they're skipping, are gonna land in 2007 - again, that's sorta easy.

Didn't Christian say to Sun (not that what they say anymore is something I should hang my beliefs on) that she has a long journey back to Jin?

I don't think it's gonna be a reunion in January. But maybe everyone gets closer. And I'm sure hoping the kids are involved...

When Ben was speaking to Jacob at the very end and tearing up about not being worthy, it certainly felt like a Son/Father confrontation. So, in true Greek tragedy style, we have Ben knifing the Father (who he could never please) to death. Afterall, LOST is totally about Daddy-issues, and Patricide (Kate, Ben, and Locke orchestrating Locke to kill Cooper) is a recurrent theme.

Also, The tables were really turned there, with Pet Cemetary Locke talking Ben into the deed (what did Ben say to Juliet about getting Jack to operate on him, I find out what motivates people and then I exploit it.)

@lets_get_lost
Good pick up about the "lie".

I thought the cabins looked the same too. I think there was even a picture of Vincent lying on its side when Ilana walked through.

I was just reading the story about Jacob Vs. his brothe Esau. it is interesting that it was Jacob that was the manipulator in the story

Does anyone know or did anyone hear about Elizabeth Mitchell (juliet)being cast in another show called V.. a remake of an 1980's show?

CAM - yes! We thought that was Penny too.

Oops - Anonymous at 9:15 was me.

Does anyone know or did anyone hear about Elizabeth Mitchell (juliet)being cast in another show called V.. a remake of an 1980's show?

I read this column after every episode and I love it! I have never posted before, however I felt compelled after my sister did some research and found this. I think this is pretty good...

The man who inhabits John Locke's body is Easu, Jacob's twin. In the bible he vows to kill him. apparently he found his loophole and succeeded. Jacob was the father of 12 sons..each of those 12 sons founded one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Benjamin was Jacob's 12th son, and his favorite....

Here's something else I found…about Richard, the ship (the Black Rock) and the Anubis (Egyptian statue):

Smokey is Anubis (God of the Underworld) Island is Jacob's Ladder (Portal to Heaven)

Smokey is Anubis, the Egyptian God of the Dead and the Underworld. He was brought to the island on the Black Rock as part of the cargo shipment which was likely to contain Egyptian Artifacts. (Think Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Arc of the Covenant or Night at the Museum with Ben Stiller).

Anubis came to the island because he was in search of the portal to Paradise. According to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, in order for the dead to escape the underworld, they must have their heart weight by Anubis (be judged), be found virtuous, and then they must find a stairway up into Paradise. The dead are escorted through the underworld by Horus (a Giant Bird with Head of Phoenix).

Jacob is a reference to Jacob’s Ladder. Jacob, son of Isac, brother of Esau, was given a vision of the stairway or portal into heaven. Jacob’s Ladder is the stairway to heaven used by the angels to enter/exit the heavens. God sent this vision of the stairway shortly after Jacob tricked his father into giving him his brother Esau’s blessing.

It is said that the entrance to Jacob’s Ladder exists where Jacob slept. Originally, this was Mount Moriah, the future home of the Temple in Jerusalem. That temple has been destroyed and restored several times.

I think that Jacob’s Ladder moved to the Island at some point in time, and the Ladder is the reason for the Island’s special electromagnetic characteristics. It is a portal. Which is why Anubis sought it out. By controlling Jacob’s Ladder, Anubis can manipulate people and time.

Jacob is the keeper of the gateway. The coming war is between Jacob and Anubis, God and the Devil, Good Vs Evil, etc. In other words, it is Armegedon.

The story of the Survivors is basically how they will prevent or postpone Armegeddon. Thus all of the references to the Valenzetti Equation, Hanso, etc.

Smokey is the embodiemnet of Anubis. The book of the dead says that Anubis can project visions of the dead and use them to manipulate people and events. (Which would mean Claire is dead). Christian and Claire are dead, and they are always used to move the characters to take actions in favor of Anubis' agenda.

Walts visions are not from Anubis. Miles, Walt, Hurley, Daniel all have special "gifts", probably somehow inspired by proximity to the Island, but not directly under the control of Anubis. When Charlie appears to Hurley, it is because Hurley can see dead people--not because Anubis is making him appear.

Ben lives in fear of Smokey, and is basically the agent of Anubis. He is in effect, a false prophet who has hijacked Jacob's people and lead them down the wrong path.

Richard Alpert is RA, the Egyptian god of the Sun. In the book of the dead, RA helps Anubius, God of the Dead, manage the underworld.

I think that the original island inhabitants may be Angels, who are trapped on the island because Anubis has captured the portal. Ben and RA are there to pacify this group while Anubis works out his evil plot to destroy the world.

The Widmore Family founded the Hanso group, which funded Dharma Inititiative with the sole purpose of preventing the inevitable end of the world as predicted by the Valenzetti Equation (aka the Numbers).

I know my theory sounds all "religious", which is really kind of boring, but in reality all of the great sci-fi fantasy books, movies, even video games are based on this kind of mythological literary back story.

LOST has always used a lot of mythological metaphors and literrary symbolism. Themes of Good vs Evil, the Duplicity of Man, Self Determinatin VS Destiny fill the Lost storyline and keep it interesting. I think the story will play out something hollywood style something like this:

The Smoke Monster battles the Time Lord for control of the Electromagnetic Time Portal. The story of the survivors of flight 815 is about how our heroes are pulled into this battle, and ultimately prevent the end of the world (or at least postpone it for a while).

@ fanolost - but can we trust anything Christian says....if he is Archie and Archie turns out to be evil/bad...the least good, then can we trust him?

In the beginning jacob was on his loom weaving the picture of the statue so he could leave it in the cabin so someone would be able to know where he went. I think sacrafice has something to do with it. Locke sacrificed himself in a selfless act to get them to all go back. Maybe Juliet's sacrifice will allow Jacob to use her body to come back as well. Makes me wonder who is inhabiting Christian?

@CAM - YES I DID see Pen in that flashforward flash... interesting, no?

@lets-get-lost - those are interesting points. I like it. Taking Jacob out of the good/evil and just 'saving' because for some reason - like the island isn't done with him.

I read this column after every episode and I love it! I have never posted before, however I felt compelled after my sister did some research and found this. I think this is pretty good...

The man who inhabits John Locke's body is Easu, Jacob's twin. In the bible he vows to kill him. apparently he found his loophole and succeeded. Jacob was the father of 12 sons..each of those 12 sons founded one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Benjamin was Jacob's 12th son, and his favorite....

Here's something else I found…about Richard, the ship (the Black Rock) and the Anubis (Egyptian statue):

Smokey is Anubis (God of the Underworld) Island is Jacob's Ladder (Portal to Heaven)

Smokey is Anubis, the Egyptian God of the Dead and the Underworld. He was brought to the island on the Black Rock as part of the cargo shipment which was likely to contain Egyptian Artifacts. (Think Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Arc of the Covenant or Night at the Museum with Ben Stiller).

Anubis came to the island because he was in search of the portal to Paradise. According to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, in order for the dead to escape the underworld, they must have their heart weight by Anubis (be judged), be found virtuous, and then they must find a stairway up into Paradise. The dead are escorted through the underworld by Horus (a Giant Bird with Head of Phoenix).

Jacob is a reference to Jacob’s Ladder. Jacob, son of Isac, brother of Esau, was given a vision of the stairway or portal into heaven. Jacob’s Ladder is the stairway to heaven used by the angels to enter/exit the heavens. God sent this vision of the stairway shortly after Jacob tricked his father into giving him his brother Esau’s blessing.

It is said that the entrance to Jacob’s Ladder exists where Jacob slept. Originally, this was Mount Moriah, the future home of the Temple in Jerusalem. That temple has been destroyed and restored several times.

I think that Jacob’s Ladder moved to the Island at some point in time, and the Ladder is the reason for the Island’s special electromagnetic characteristics. It is a portal. Which is why Anubis sought it out. By controlling Jacob’s Ladder, Anubis can manipulate people and time.

Jacob is the keeper of the gateway. The coming war is between Jacob and Anubis, God and the Devil, Good Vs Evil, etc. In other words, it is Armegedon.

The story of the Survivors is basically how they will prevent or postpone Armegeddon. Thus all of the references to the Valenzetti Equation, Hanso, etc.

Smokey is the embodiemnet of Anubis. The book of the dead says that Anubis can project visions of the dead and use them to manipulate people and events. (Which would mean Claire is dead). Christian and Claire are dead, and they are always used to move the characters to take actions in favor of Anubis' agenda.

Walts visions are not from Anubis. Miles, Walt, Hurley, Daniel all have special "gifts", probably somehow inspired by proximity to the Island, but not directly under the control of Anubis. When Charlie appears to Hurley, it is because Hurley can see dead people--not because Anubis is making him appear.

Ben lives in fear of Smokey, and is basically the agent of Anubis. He is in effect, a false prophet who has hijacked Jacob's people and lead them down the wrong path.

Richard Alpert is RA, the Egyptian god of the Sun. In the book of the dead, RA helps Anubius, God of the Dead, manage the underworld.

I think that the original island inhabitants may be Angels, who are trapped on the island because Anubis has captured the portal. Ben and RA are there to pacify this group while Anubis works out his evil plot to destroy the world.

The Widmore Family founded the Hanso group, which funded Dharma Inititiative with the sole purpose of preventing the inevitable end of the world as predicted by the Valenzetti Equation (aka the Numbers).

I know my theory sounds all "religious", which is really kind of boring, but in reality all of the great sci-fi fantasy books, movies, even video games are based on this kind of mythological literary back story.

LOST has always used a lot of mythological metaphors and literrary symbolism. Themes of Good vs Evil, the Duplicity of Man, Self Determinatin VS Destiny fill the Lost storyline and keep it interesting. I think the story will play out something hollywood style something like this:

The Smoke Monster battles the Time Lord for control of the Electromagnetic Time Portal. The story of the survivors of flight 815 is about how our heroes are pulled into this battle, and ultimately prevent the end of the world (or at least postpone it for a while).

When Rose and Bernard were asked why they did not go and live with Sawyer et al in the 1977 Dharma camp, Rose said, "Because we're retired." I took this to mean that a long time ago they were involved in Dharma. Anyone else feel the same?

Followed this site since it's incarnation, yet never posted before. However, I just had to ask - Why hasn't anyone mentioned the partial reveal of the statue in the opening scene???? In my opinion it was not the jackal-headed "Anubis" like I (and everyone else) assumed. It seemed to me like it had the face of a freaking crocodile or dinosaur! Was anyone else as surprised/confused as I was - or was I just hallucinating? Thoughts??

@jenn3 - that's why I said in paren. that I can not hang my beliefs...

But I really do not want to say good/bad, etc. it's too easy.

There are two sides to every story. That doesn't make one good or bad.

It's two sides.

It's everyone's free will who then pick sides and create this 'feeling of good or bad.'

Does this make sense?

How do we know that the bomb really went off? This is LOST we're talking about. The flash could just have been how they ended the episode. Also did anyone notice how Jacob touched everyone he met in the flashbacks? What does that mean?

@ CAM- thanks about Chang's arm. This is another reason I believe what we saw was the Incident and the Losties are done with Mission Destiny and headed back to 1977. Because, we saw Miles save Chang (with the damaged arm) and Radzinsky get knocked out (but obviously this set up him completing the Swan construction and eventually pushing the button every 108 minutes.) If either of those two parish, the future is altered. Instead, Jack and company pushed Destiny right along its course.

Loved the ep because we found out the war is not between two little people such as Ben and Widmore, but two greater and more intriguing entities. Can't wait to see what happens next.

A couple more things i want to add --did Jacob actually kill Nadia or SAVE Sayid?? The car was probably meant for Sayid.

What was with all the cheesy couples glances when jack was going to drop the bomb? i think that is indicative of something, the show used to be love triangles and now it seems that its evened out?

No one has mentioned anything about when Ilana said, "He has 'red' hair." I think she said 'red' - she was referring to Lapidus and that's when her group started being nice to him.

What's up there? OR did I hear it wrong?

@CAM- sorry, my msg was unclear. I was supporting you and saying ilovelost was in denial. I know you are a realist.

First time poster! I've read most of the comments here, and have a couple thoughts.
1) I buy into Archie inhabiting dead Locke and Christian 100%, BUT there are fundamental differences b/w the two.
2) Christian could never touch anyone/thing (ex. - Locke and the donkey wheel). Locke put his hand on Ben's knee when they were on the beach. Why the difference?
3) Also - if Archie is smokey, which would stand to reason b/c he told Ben to completely obey Locke, then that means Archie is the island's 'judge'. What does that make Jacob if they're opposites?

@Whitney D, I got the same feeling with the statue. Although I never thought it was Anubis, I did lean towards Tawaret until lastnight.

If you get a chance google Sobek, head like a crocodile. Interesting stuff for sure and relates to LOST and Jacob. But the jury is still out for sure on exactly who the statue is.

Wait
what?
there doing a remake of V?
omg i loved that stupid show, i got both miniseries, and the tv series on disc some where at the house,
uhm i think i just made myself sound old and nerdy,

@flashest monk: I take that as a compliment. :)

Are Benard and Rose the "Adam and Eve" from the cave in season one?

@ Alisa | May 14, 2009 09:16 AM - WOW! Very Interesting.

@ lostaroo - I took it to mean they would have had to work, like everyone else did and that they didn't want to do that.

Who says smokey is the island's judge? FLocke?

@Flashest, excellent post "Chang's arm", I am in agreement, destiny fulfilled.

@yaylost, I have a theory that Smokey is NOT "Archie" at all, but simply a servant of Archie's. Similar to how Richard is serving (or was) Jacob. But still very much debatable.

Nice catches about Dr. Changs arm and Radzinsky. If "what happened happened" is true, than they must survive the explosion/flash or whatever went with juliet

@ fanolost: I agree that Jacob being good or bad doesn't make a difference in the scene with Sayid and Nadia. He did what he did with purpose allowing Sayid to eventually go back to the island. It's funny that later Sayid said something like, "No one can save me." I thought, "They already did!"

cmon daniel that final scene was SO a finale.

archie? that's the best people can come up with for the smokemonster? ahhhhh i don't like that term. but what else? even tv.com has his role listed as "Man #2"

right on flashest monk I think pet sematary locke was so appropriate - it wasn't really locke after all.

Also, Dead really IS Dead so yeah Juliet is dead. the other losties? not sure

Finally who else thinks Richard came to the island on the black rock? Will Richard start aging (or die suddenly) now that Jacob is dead/dying?

@ yay lost re: 2) Christian could never touch anyone/thing (ex. - Locke and the donkey wheel). Locke put his hand on Ben's knee when they were on the beach. Why the difference?

That isn't true, Christian held Aaron and there are a few other instances where he touched, but I can't remember.

@CAM- I meant, you are a realist, except those times when you support Team Benwagon. Then you're just plain silly. :)

First time poster, long time reader here.

First, how has no one mentioned the best line of the show - Jin "I don't know him, but his Korean is excellent..." HILARIOUS!

Ok, first, I think Thomas mentioned this above but we are all assuming the bomb went off. I think that is a mistake.

Secondly, everyone is assuming IF the bomb went off, THAT is the incident. What if the real incident is Jacob getting killed?? What if THAT is the game changer? I'm not sure I agree as I do buy into the theory that you can't change things, but it would be interesting.

As for Julia and if she's dead - she's got a brand new series she's starring in so if she's not dead, I don't think we're going to be seeing much of her next year anyway....I'm thrilled for her tho - she's terrific.

It's sites like these that are going to keep me fixed until Lost returns next year!!

@Mr. F
Oooh, I like that theory. But, if that's true, that would mean that the island's judge works for the 'bad guys'? I know whether Archie is good or bad is still up for debate... but what if Smokey is neutrality? Judging each on his/her merit.

@yaylost
I took it to mean Jacob and Archie are on two sides - neither one of them is the judge. They are both using people or creatures (in Smokey's case) as pawns in their rivarly.

Did anyone else think that Jacob wanted to die? He almost egged Ben on to kill him. It appears he's been around a long time. Maybe he was just ready to go.

I thought last night's episode was great. Posed a lot of questions for the final season and I can't wait until January.

I haven't finished reading comments, but ...

Biblically, recall that the youngest (last) son of Jacob (who is renamed Israel) is Benjamin. Jaoob's favorite son Joseph, is attacked, thrown in a ditch and sold into slavery in Egypt. Eventually, when there is a famine, Joseph's brothers go to Egypt to plead for help. Joseph, who is by then the Pharaoh's advisor, claims that Benjamin has stolen something and detains him, before finally revealing himself. Things are good for a while, then the Israelites become too numerous and potentially powerful, and are enslaved. They are brought out from the land of Egypt by Moses. Moses' brother is Aaron, who becomes the first High Priest.

Jacob (Israel) had a twin brother, Esau, Esau was hairy, and a hunter (Locke bringing the boar). Jacob, along with his mother, trick Isaac into giving Jacob, the younger twin, the blessing. However, Esau had sold the right to that blessing to Jacob years earlier.

I do think that the Jacob thing was meant to invoke the Jacob-Esau thing. I've long thought that Chrisian was intended to be the antithesis of Jacob (Israel), and that Christian never spoke for Jacob.

BTW, we did get one thing answered -- Jacob creates the lists. (recall Ben referring to all those pieces of paper, all those lists).

Next season -- the battle between good and evil. As Frank pointed out, though, we're still not sure which side is which.

I support team Ben because I think the character is brilliantly written and acted... and, in case you missed it, HE LIVED! Boo Ya!

Jacob is not so worried when he is going to be killed because he knows that the Losties back in 1977 are going to detonate the bomb and the present will be changed. Therefore he will outsmart his emeny who is impersonating Lock. So Jacob is alive after all and the plane doesn't crash because the history is rewritten.

Last night was the first time I watched this show. Can someone explain to me what's going on?

-)

@ CAM

even when ben is bad bad bad I still love his character.

Here's a question - since the electromagneic field was tapped into and released before the bomb ever went off, then Jack and the 1977ers did not cause the incident....

@Jenn3
My bad. I don't remember that at all. But I believe you!

The eye ... Does anyone remember the first episode? Wasn't there a closeup of an eye in that? Jack's, perhaps? Is it a parallel?

@letsnotsay

Jacob may not create the lists, but he may pass them on - possible to people of his choosing. It almost seemed as if he was following a list of "to-do's" when visiting all the losties in the past.

@glee- its interesting that we didn't see Richard (Ricardus) in the opening seen with Jacoby and Anti-Jacob (sorry, Archie brings up visions of Archie Bunker for me. Resisting it like Jenn3 and fb.) However, the fact that he had a Latin name could imply he has been there for a long time. Possibly someone Jacob brought over previous to the Black Rock. Black Rock would have been what, late 1800's? I'm reserving judgement, leaning toward him being an ancient immortal similar to Jacob and the other dude.

@Huh?

haha, good one. good luck

can anyone tell me who the biblical father of Jacob and Esau was?

@ CAM

even when ben is bad bad bad I still love his character.

The eye ... Does anyone remember the first episode? Wasn't there a closeup of an eye in that? Jack's, perhaps? Is it a parallel?

@yaylost
I think Smoky and Archie are the same but he is not the opposite to Jacob but instead his "security system' as Danielle said. That his job is to protect the island and Jacob that is why he can not kill Jacob and was looking for a loophole. I think that Jacob and Smoky are fighting over weather or not they can trust mankind. Smoky as the islands Judaical system has seen only the mistakes of the islands inhabitants and only carries out their punishments that is why he has no value in human life. As opposed to Jacob who created or nourished( gave a little push) to the people of the island so he inherently loves them, that is what Jacob means by the whole tapestry speech about making the threads ect..

9:29 -- Not all of Jacob's little visits are good -- in this case he distracted Sayid and Nadia got run over. Bad Jacob.

------------------
It seemed to me that Jacob saved Sayid from the same fate as Nadia. If this is true then every vist was good.

Also, in the beginning of the episode Jacob was wearing white and the other guy, who wants him dead, is in black. This made me think they're portraying Jacob as good and the other guy as evil.

Jacob and Esau's father was Isaac, grandfather was Abraham.

Wow it took me hours to read all the comments! Haven't posted in a few weeks. But loving everyone'
s theories right now. I screamed at the TV at the end when they put up Final Season 2010.. although i want answers more than anything. I dunno what I'm going to do with my LOST wednesdays :(

@Chuy
good comment. i thought it was just too easy for Ben to kill him.

@ Cam thanks re: coining Archie.
@ flashest re: dialectic thought - when they started talking about the H-Bomb vs. power source, I kept thinking about matter/anti-matter that I read about in Dan Brown's Angels & Demons (which comes to theaters this weekend).
BTW - am getting NOTHING done at work today!

re: the beginning scene. Everyone keeps saying the ship is probably the Black Rock. Isn't that Danielle's ship? If the show started in 2001, and she'd been there for 16 years, then it crashed in 1985.

If in 1985 the statue was still whole, the Losties in 1977 would have seen it, right? I think the beginning scene was way earlier in the island's history than people think.

@CAM and Jenn3- do you really call that spineless quivering jellyfish that lived in a body resembling Ben to be living? I think not. I think Ben parished after talking to SmokieAlex. I don't know what that thing was that allowed himself to be manipulated by Pet Cemetary Locke, but it wasn't the Ben we know and grew to hate the last couple of seasons. He's a man with limited options.

@Good Omen
Thanks! I missed the comment about Richard anti-aging. Musta had to pee!

At the same time that you appear to have a transfer of power from Jacob (in white) to Archie (in black), you have the fade of the show switch from black (all episodes until this one) to white, and the LOST card also switch from black to white. This is reality, where who is good and who is bad is not clear.

@ yaylost

Black Rock in definitely NOT Danielle's ship. Black Rock is far older than that.

@letsnotsay- LOST does close ups of eyes all the time to begin episodes. Most recently, the Flight 316 episode started with Jack's eye looking up on the island again. You're right, they did start the pilot with that scene.

(Speaking of eyes, they did shadowing with the last scene with Ben and Jacob as well. You could only see one eye of Jacobs and it appeared to have tears in it as he was listening to poor Ben whine about being mistreated and neglected. Ben's eyes were also shadowed but you could see both of them.

The whole story of Lost is about Good vs. Evil. Jacob is Good. The other guy, who wants to kill Jacob (the "Anti-Jacob") is Evil. The Losties (and everyone else that have come to the Island) are just pawns in this battle. The Others are Good. They are indigenous to the Island or are “chosen” by Jacob and transcended into Mystical Beings (i.e., they don’t age, they live forever, they travel through time). They are the “Jacob People”.

Good and Evil are so equally powerful that Anti-Jacob cannot kill Jacob without destroying himself. So to accomplish his goal of killing Jacob, the Anti-Jacob has to find a loophole and possess the body of one of the people that Jacob had “saved”/”chosen” and convince the other “Jacob People’s to be evil.

Widmore is still a “Jacob Person” because he was part of The Others, therefore anyone who works for him is Good. . Ben use to be on the good guys side until his insecurities (not meeting Jacob, etc) got the best of him and the Anti-Jacob (as Locke) was able to convince him to be a bad guy. Ben has been developing his insecurities for years, as evident by his jealousy of Widmore; therefore banishing Widmore from the Island. Also, over the years, Ben has wanted Jacob to give him the same regard as he has Widmore and Richard so when that did not happen he was secretly resentful, which the Anti-Jacob knew about and was able to manipulate as Locke.

The Anti-Jacob has been around the whole time, manifested as the "Smoke Monster" and Ben has used by him on several occasions to exert revenge. Anti-Jacob was therefore very aware of Ben’s insecurities and knew he can easily turn him against Jacob.

I think that the season finale was such a cliff-hanger because next season (the last season), will show the battle (War) between Good and Evil. We will see who is really on which side and how they came to be. I think that when Jacob said “they are coming” I think he was talking about the War and all the players.

I cannot wait! Next season will be fantastic!

I like the religious references even if I am not religious. It's a well known story and one that has been passed down through the ages. Jacob could be representing Jesus. He knows he will be killed by Locke but also know he must die to save the island. The people he touches are his disciples. They will carry on after him and keep the island alive.

I wanted to make a comment about the fade to white. We have had 5 years(seasons) of fade to black and apparently Jacob was calling the shots for that entire time. Bam! Fake Locke has seemed to gain control on island and next thing you know its fade to white. Coincidence.

Could Jacob have been causing the rise and demise of the past 5 season and doing it on a so called evil mission (i.e. for his own benefit or pleasure). Now that Fake Locke is in control he is going to deliver a can you say island cleansing (purge) and actually do something that is good for the island.

This is just a far fetched theory and by no means substatiated. Jacob like Ben is/was a master manipulator. He might have changed the course of peoples lives for possibly own pleasure (met with Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Sayid, and Ilena, and talked Hurley into coming back to island when he said he would never go back.)

@Flashest Monk -- wasn't that the point? Everything that Ben had devoted his life to, everything he believed in, had been taken away from him. He was a beaten man, tricked, betrayed. Let's see him next season when he realizes that he was right all along.

I want to re-post what I posted under "Follow the Leader" this morning...

I think that this is all some very big game between Jacob and "Archie" where all the people being lured to the island are their pawns. It is a sick sick game, but a game nonetheless. I mean, Jacob orchestrated Nadia dying so that Sayid didn't have to and could come back to the island. Jacob made sure that Sawyer became "Sawyer" and followed his revenge to Australia. Saving Locke after his father tried to kill him may have been done for his own benefit but "Archie" used "self-appointed" Lock as his loophole. I still think that the original Locke was set-up as the self appointed leader so that Richard believed him but I don't think he is all too special besides what Jacob and Archie used him for.
Posted by: CAM | May 14, 2009 05:40 AM

re: Rose and Bernard, I thought this was a wonderful storyline and a testiment that Jacob isn't really evil at the core. HE brought everyone to the island who ever came over the years and Rose and Bernard were no exception. I think he brought them to the island so he could heal Rose and that her and Bernard could live out their days - I mean he let them live in his cabin. So sweet.
Posted by: CAM | May 14, 2009 05:45 AM

Oh and I really did like the scenes with Juliet and Sawyer - makes me love Sawyer all the more. I didn't mind Kate and Juliet so much last night - they put their girl v. girl issues on the backburner for the greater good and I think that is honorable. But the Sawyer v. Jack fight was AWESOME and way past due.
Posted by: CAM | May 14, 2009 05:48 AM

Does anyone know where i can watch the first hour of the three that aired last night, i can't seem to find it on abc.com.

(I haven’t read through all of the post so I don’t if it’s been mentioned or not.) I think what you have to realize is that all of the losties that are on the island in 1977 are all currently living their “normal” lives elsewhere (i.e. Sawyer says his parents died a year ago). The bomb blast (if it in fact did go off) would kill of the losties in 1977. However, their normal lives would continue on as they previously did (Jack-doctor, Sayid-Iraq Army, Kate-Locked up for murder, Sawyer-Con man, etc.). They would all be on Oceanic 815 in 2007 but not know each other. And since there is no Swan station on the island, no button to push, no electromagnetic surge to cause the crash(assuming Faraday was correct) and they never meet. That’s why Sawyer says to Jack that even if his plan works, Kate would be locked up on the plane and they would never know each other implying that if Jack’s upset about losing Kate, carrying out this plan isn’t going to get her back for you. Jack then responds that anything is possible. So I think the bomb blast would just kill them all.

I don't think Juliet was pregnant, she wouldn't have tried to leave Sawyer if she were. I think she got a stomach ache because she felt that Kate would get between them.

I don't think Juliet was pregnant, she wouldn't have tried to leave Sawyer if she were. I think she got a stomach ache because she felt that Kate would get between them.
I think the eye will turn out to be Jack's - as it was in the Pilot episode.

I cannot read through all the comments, but cannot get this thought out of my head........

Why did Eloise and Ben say that dead Locke must come back in the coffin to represent the 815 Christian scenerio? Were they manipulated by Dark Shirt guy as well? Was he behind everything? Was he living in the cabin and using Christian's body? Did he set this all up so he could come back to kill Jacob and that is why Jacob recruited the what lies in the shadow group?

yea @ Jean...somehow eloise and widemore are either pawns or maybe they are the "good" in all this? I dunno there are so many possibilites and awesome theories going around....

@lostlover - I don't believe she's pregnant either.

I think the reason she 'touched' her belly was really more of a HIDE THE BUMP.

She's been pregnant this season and even with a bandage, it's getting hard to hide this fact.

I believe the arm at her mid section was simply a technique used to hide real life pregnancy.

BUT - if she were gestating sawyer jr. - that's a real kick in story - since she'd likely have been able to have this child.

re: the beginning scene. Everyone keeps saying the ship is probably the Black Rock. Isn't that Danielle's ship? If the show started in 2001, and she'd been there for 16 years, then it crashed in 1985.

If in 1985 the statue was still whole, the Losties in 1977 would have seen it, right? I think the beginning scene was way earlier in the island's history than people think.

Posted by: yaylost | May 14, 2009 09:41 AM

@yaylost. No, Danielle did not come on the Black Rock. The Black Rock was a slave ship dating back a hundred + years. The scene with Jacob was meant to be a long time ago, but not specific.

Danielle lived near where the Black Rock had somehow ended up on the island.

The show started in 2004, Flight #815 crashed on 9.22.2004. Danielle and her French research team crashed on the island in 1988, so your 16 years is correct. We saw her and her team come ashore after they rescued Jin during his skipping.

The statue was whole in a time sometime prior to 1974. It was whole during a brief flash in time when Miles, Juliet and Sawyer saw it. But not whole when they ended up in 1974 and lived with Dharma until 1977. So you are correct, the beginning scene was a lot earlier then 1970.

Lostpedia has the Black Rock setting sail on March 22, 1845. So the Jacob scene is probably sometime around 1845.

wow so many good comments to think about. good work everyone.

i myself don't think jacob as "good" and archie as "evil" but jacob seems to be hopeful for the good whereas archie sees the bad in people...

as for the rest still processing but keep the comments coming...

Thats right CAM - BENWAGON survives!

I'm telling you flashest is over compensating...even though he is an honorary member of the Benwagon

I think we have Archie embodying dead people on the island (which sort of explains why Amy said they had to bury bodies). While I believe Archie=Christian w/Locke, I think Jack's mind manifested his visions of Christian if that makes sense.

IMO I think that the two men are Jacob/Anubis and the smoke monster. Anubis' job is to escort the dead to the afterlife, while the smoke monster has the job of "weighing the heart" or determining their worthyness first. IF the two were in human form, it would make sense that the smoke monster does not believe that humans can change and are animals determined to "fight, destroy and corrupt", whereas Jacob/Anubis believes that the human race still has a chance, and that's why he brings in groups of people to try to prove smokey wrong. Unfortunately the end scenario has been the same for quite a few go-rounds and Jacob/Anubis is just waiting for humans to learn or progress to the correct ending. These two men cannot kill each other, as a matter of fact, they depend on each other but they hate one another. The Smoke monster found a loophole to kill Jacob. (Probably someone other than smokey has to voluntarily kill Jacob, in this case Ben). Jacob dies, is reborn (He is a God!) and that makes the end of this loop and, when Jacob is ready he will bring in another set of recruits to try again.

I think that this is all some very big game between Jacob and "Archie" where all the people being lured to the island are their pawns. It is a sick sick game, but a game nonetheless. I mean, Jacob orchestrated Nadia dying so that Sayid didn't have to and could come back to the island. Jacob made sure that Sawyer became "Sawyer" and followed his revenge to Australia. Saving Locke after his father tried to kill him may have been done for his own benefit but "Archie" used "self-appointed" Lock as his loophole. I still think that the original Locke was set-up as the self appointed leader so that Richard believed him but I don't think he is all too special besides what Jacob and Archie used him for.
Posted by: CAM | May 14, 2009 05:40 AM

Nice post, maybe even a nod to this early on in season 1. Locke and Walt playing backgammon, the oldest game known to man, one white, one black.

Without reading anyone else's first, I think that Jacob is God/Fate or a god that can see fate at all points along time and that is what he is weaving. He has tapped these people for some reason because he feels for them and he has given them everything they could ever want by bringing them to the island (shown by Rose and her husband in the woods). Jacob is reading a book that is about the south after slaves were freed and they were unhappy because they didn't view it as freedom. Jacob freed these people and all they do on the island is war and try to get off the island. But the name of the book is "everything that rises must converge" and I take that along with his beach comment that each time these gods sort of play out this scenario, Jacob feels that the people at least evolve in some way. This makes me think that they are stuck in this loop of a sort of resurrection where life/death, time, and location are blurred. The dark figure is very new and I can only possibly link him to Richard possibly - who is the only other constant... which may be the reason why some people are more effected by the skips than others - the fact that they know Richard. When Desmond was skipping on the boat quite awhile ago the thing that saved him was a constant which was Penelope. Anyway, This dark figure wants to kill this person who frees these people. Maybe it could be Richard in a way since he seems to be stuck. The obvious loophole was human free will and the need to feel special, like it is all about them. Earlier James and Juliet explain that when Juliet is convinced that it would never work out and James' conversation with Jack about how a man only does things because it might give him something. So Ben is focused on what Jacob never gave him. The dark figure obviously can control the dead and has been living in Jacobs cabin as Christian and Claire and Ben's daughter. Jacob reminds Ben that he still has free will no matter how much it feels like he doesn't and Ben chooses to kill him because he didn't make Ben feel special enough and Ben is constrained in his own mind by all the things he thinks he has to do. And so the experiment starts over because as Jacob said to the dark figure on the beach, each time the scenario gets played out the characters rise a little. Personally this seems like an existential view of God/Fate and the roll that it plays in our life along with Death/Mr.GrimReeper. Wiki Existentialism & scroll down to Concepts. I remember from a class I took many years ago... it says that God doesn't control your life and where you go but can simply see the entire line of your fate over time because God is free from time. I suppose any intervention would end you up on an island that is also free from time, except for its anchors that is.

What if the flash was a time jump caused by attempt on Jacob's life? Nothing to do with the bomb

Are Jacob and Richard related? They both never age and are obviously working together.

I think it's important to note that in the flashbacks with Jacob, he touched Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer. It's significant as well that he didn't touch Juliet in the flashback as well. Making me note to myself to not let Jacob touch me.

As to the Locke issue, I believe that he was body snatched by the guy in the very first part of the episode "You know how much I want to kill you Jacob"? Hence the loophole mentioned when they were in the tomb. Also, through some research, my friends and I discovered the statue is of a God of the underworld (Sobek - http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htm) who was known for rebirth and fertility. I think that Richard and Ilana are "minions" (for lack of a better word) of Jacob and have somehow tapped into the power of Sobek.

@lostlover Amy said they had to bury the dead people so that they wouldn't be discovered by the others. After looking up what the tapestry says on Lostpedia I think that the both Jacob and Smoky are observers and debating the state of humankind. The tapestry says give man everything he desires. The Island (gods) does give the inhabainets of it everything they desire their health, their soulmate, paradise and Jacob and Smoky are debating weather or not that will make people happy and do good or in the end will all just end with fighting and destruction like it always has in the past. Listen to Rose she is a prophet.

I checked out the whole Jacob thing, and found this web site (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=281) that explains the biblical story of Jacob. There seems to be an awful lot of similarities. I know people have said stuff like this before, but it seems like it goes down this road more and more.

@ samiam | May 14, 2009 07:23 AM - Moses is Aaron's yonger brother, they are the great,great grandchildren of Jacob.

I'm about halfway and I'm seeing a lot of people say the other dude on the beach may have inhabited Christian. Now, we don't have the slightest idea where Christian's body is, but we know where Locke's is. So it might seem weird, but for that reason, I am not going to assume the other dude was "controlling" Christian. I still think he is on Jacob's "side."

to Dana | May 14, 2009 07:56 AM - you say Jacob is letting Ben kill him for a greater good and I could not agree more!! Has anyone seen the movie Constantine? He sacrifices himself for the girl, so he goes to Heaven (only to be brought back to life by the Devil). Great movie, one of my favs!

to Dana | May 14, 2009 09:12 AM - she technically could do both. The actor who plays the "oldest" Mr. Widmore played Bradford Meade on Ugly Betty at the same time. But he died on that show so...LOST it is...

to lynn | May 14, 2009 09:22 AM - i think he saved Sayid, or else he too may have been hit and killed by the car

to samiam | May 14, 2009 09:36 AM - isaac and rebecca are their parents

Some of the questions were already answered, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in and by the time I finish reading and hit refresh there are tons more!!

A couple seasons ago, BEN went to CHARLES WIDMORE's hotel room to threaten that he was going to kill PENNY becuase WIDMORE had not followed "the rules".

What "rules" apply to BEN and WIDMORE ?? Clearly, JACOB has been in charge.

Now we are hearing about "the rules" a lot again.

Explanations???

Also, I don't feel so crazy about my Bible theory now that a lot more people are seeing the Jacob connections. For a while I was all alone there. LOL.

Regarding NADIA's death ---- they do like to have a fast, fatal vehicle crash into a person on LOST.

Remember the bus??

I used to think that the title "Lost" meant lost on an island, but I now know it means emotionally or spiritually lost. Each character was "lost" in their life before coming to the island.

I like Rose as a prophet. I like Hurley as blessed. Something is in that guitar case. But what? Sayid wants Nadia alive again, so I don't think he dismantled the bomb. And why worry about saving Sayid when you are killing everyone. Jack did what Locke couldn't do, killed himself. Also, Jacob didn't like free will so much. He didn't let Kate steal and get in trouble for it. He didn't let Locke jump out the damn window and die. He stopped Sayid from going in the street too. He got Jack his candybar, yeah that one is weird. Christian's comments at the FDW make me think he is with Jacob. It was the comment about trusting what Ben says that makes me think this. Just some random thoughts folks...

So I'd just like to say, despite all the baby mama drama that was here over this past season, myself included - it's been great chatting/blogging with everyone and throwing out ideas. And I really think it's great a television show can get people to really think about things, and even help educate them on something they may have never known. I didn't read a lick of the Bible until I started on the Jacob/Aaron connection and I feel like I learned so much! I even signed up for a couple philosophy classes!!

So with that said, I hope we can continue on this happy note and keep discussing everything!!

@ssarah

I hope so too. I have really enjoyed participating in this blog. It is great to have a place to discuss theories and information about the show. Thanks for all your input.

Maybe Richard is the Wandering Jew? Trying to make up for his mistake????

Does anyone remember the book that was tied to lost "The Bad Twin", that totally supports the religious them everyone has been bringing up.

Does anyone remember the book that was tied to lost "The Bad Twin", that totally supports the religious them everyone has been bringing up. I didn't ready it, but the title alone does..

@ambrosia -
Locke didn't jump out the window to die, his dad pushed him out the window.

It is bothering me (a lot) that people are posting that LOCKE "jumped" out of the window.

He was pushed out of it by his father....

I know I am being anal about this, but come on, get this correct! Thx

High 5 to CAM...

for also posting about the "jumping out the window" error

$= that is a high five over on facebook.

I can feel the love on this blog and I like it :)

Did anyone notice that when Evil Locke, aka Archie, told Ben he would be the one to kill Jacob, it was reminiscent of when Ben told Good (?) Locke that he would have to kill his own father?

@bb - I have been anal retentive about the details for a long time, no worries. I know it can be annoying but things can get out of control if we forget about the details.

-Tetleys
Although most of the theory has previously been stated, I think your thoughts are dead-on.

@bb - ah yes! you reminded me about Juliet's husband and The Bus that hit him. Any guesses as to whether it was Jacob or 'Archie' involved in that?

@ CAM - re: $= that is a high five over on facebook.
Yet another reason to fight against the pull to facebook! I never would have thought that is a high five.

@bb- I thought the same thing when Nadia got hit by the auto (Damn, they sure can special FX of a human getting hit by a moving vehicle.) Totally reminded me of Juliet's ex getting hit by the bus (and Michael getting hit by a car, remember that scene. Spent a year in the hospital.)

Also, who ever the makeup artist is on facial bruises and blood, should absolutely get an emmy. I mean, I have never seen so many faces get pummeled as LOST. Sawyer absolutely mashed Jack (although Sawyer looked like Jack got in a few.)

I agree with Kruxoli earlier, I could do without the Starsky and Hutch meets Charlies Angels gun play. And when the Dharma van pulled up, A-team music would have been appropriate (sorry forgot who brought up A-team but you were spot on.)

Yes, Locke was tossed out the window...he most certainly didn't jump...

is it bad that the A-Team music might have been hummed a little in my house when the van pulled up? haha

Seriosuly, people getting hit by cars and unbelievable gun fights are huge with the writers. Need to kill someone on LOST? I suggest car or a FIRE FIIIIIGHT (boondock saints reference, anyone?)

@ Flashest Monk:

Glad to see I'm not the only one who though that was CORNY as hell...I mean, come on, these people are not trained for combat (save Sayid, and, I have no idea what the Dharma people were trained for). To me, it just seems silly...

@ MLM:

Great reference to a great movie...Boondock Sains is severely underrated...

@AZWildcat- I mentioned it earlier that it was reminescent of not only that but the way Ben used to manipulate everyone by finding out what motivates them and then exploiting it. I also think that Jacob was somewhat a father figure for Ben and that what was generating Ben's feelings of inadequacy, neglect and betrayl. (but be careful, this Blog is monitored by the BenWagon-shhhh)

@ mlm - Where you going? No where. (I think thats from Boondock Saints, its been a while

Also, I'm a little sad that the A-Team never occurred to me during that scene. Sawyer = Face

@Jenn3

Actually, I made that up for use during our live chats on wednesday nights, not a facebook thing more like a CAM/ssarah badara thing. No one else really uses it. :)

So what is up with the ashes by the cabin? Some one had posted some translation about the ashes earlier, not sure who. Ilana warned of them as her group enter the cabin. Also I think Ben had said something about it as well in an earlier season. And Jacob gets pushed into the fire after he is killed. Is this a symbol of a new cycle - another chance to prove archie wrong?

I agree Juliet is pregnant and that was not the bomb but a flash caused by the bomb & enegy release

WOW Arron as Jacobs son, have tow work my mind around that one.

I think that Jacob was VERY hurt when ben said "what about me". sorry to bring the religious side here, but isn't it all about faith? Everything ben said before killing Jacob were things he was supposed to take on faith, had he done that and not questioned in the end he would have not have had his little fit and killed Jacob. Really I think Jacob was saying "what about you" in a reality check way, not to be mean at all.

LOL YES! Jenn3 and Kruxoli thanks for backing me up on that movie reference

@ CAM - LOL :) too funny. Didn't mean anything by it. The Lost Diary group is the only thing that makes me consider joining. Who knows, I may have to break down and just do it over the hiatus.

@ mlm - the movie is one of the most disturbing comedies (yes I just invented a new movie category) I have ever seen. Wilem Defoe is great in it, especially the scene where he reenacts the brothers shooting spree

@kruxoli- I got to admit getting a little bit of pleasure when sourpuss Phil got rebar poked thru his torso. During the scene when he is shoring up the parameter I was thinking - "this is the same dude that was ingesting hash brownies and dancing to Grateful Dead music" and was afraid to knock on Lefleur's door. Then he transforms to a torturer of women (smacked Juliet in interrogation) and SWAT TEAM leader. I mean, time to go Phil- bah bye now!

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's comments. Helps with the post-lost depression! Like others have said, I am not convinced that Jacob is good! Thought the ending was a total copout. No true Lost *shocking* moment. Not really. Roll on 2010!

@ MLM/Jenn3:

Best scene is when one of the brother's drops down from the ceiling and merks everybody...

Also, the final scene...so gangster...

Well my theory seems to be playing out as far as I'm concerned - Good vs. Bad/Evil. Maybe the walking Locke was that man in the beginning on the beach with Jacob. They seemed to be fremenies. It seemed, to me, that Jacob is an angel, who is playing with certain people's lives to test them to see if they will do good or evil. The man in the black reminded me of Satan. And the people on the Black Rock Ship, which Jacob brought to the island for his amusement - are the first human beings to ever set foot on that island. if it is an island. Jacob SEEMS like the good angel, but who knows he could be the bad angel and the other guy in the black could be the good angel. Because one thing we know - Lost likes to keep us confused and LOST.

Sorry peeps! I post corrected about Locke/window/jump. LOL!! I freakin forgot! It's hard to remember everything all at once, after reading and reading and reading all morning.

this is not well thought out, but could we start next season with flight 815 and our losties on board, and instead of landing @ LAX, they crash on the island.

Ponder the following: Juliet is alive and preggers. The series finale ends with her giving birth to twin boys. The eternal struggle begins...again.

Fallen Angel v.s. Guardian Angel...

I keep going back to Hurley's theory that, in playing Risk, Australia is the "key to the whole game."

@Beckymonster - looks like we are thinking along the same lines. I'm just TRYING to READ all the posts - so I didnt realize you almost said the same thing as I.

Ah yes, the ashes around the cabin, if I am correct is an old voodoo thing. Can't break the circle and all, you know. To contain the spirits and so forth.
Nell Carter used that trick in the movie "Modern
Problems". (Then Chevy Chase jumped off the bed and snorted up the whole line, I mean circle.

@bb: I totally agree about the evil guy (Archie). I think he is able to take on the body of those already dead (i.e., Christian, Locke, etc.)to serve his purpose of being able to kill Jacob.

There is a whole good vs. evil thing here (Jacob is wearing a white shirt, the evil dude is wearing a black shirt). There are a lot of similarities with the bible.

The bad Locke has been able to persuade Ben to question his faith and loyalty to Jacob. Then Ben finally confronts Jacob on how he wasn't really there for him. Also, the book that Jacob was reading right before Locke falls out of the window in the flashback, was called "Flannery O'Connor's Everything That Rises Must Converge". On the front is a dove which is pierced through the heart with an arrow. Ben stabbed Jacob right in the same location.

I also think that Ilana and her group truly are the "good guys" and maybe like Angels. Even Richard may be like this as well, since he hasn't aged and appears to kind of be Jacob's right hand man.
Also, Ilana's group is the same group that tried to convince Miles NOT to come to the island, during his flashbacks.

Just my two cents. Loved it and can't believe we have to wait until at least Jan. to see the rest.

-flashest monk
Oh, and I might not have been first with the Moses reference, but that was me with the A-team. Thanks!

Remember ya'll "a war is comming"(whitmore) I bet next season we see the good vs bad come to light and the war play out. Its obvious Jacob recruited all the players he needed to fight on his side. The question is will all the players stay on their assigned sides.

This whole religion thing has been getting me thinking...there's a very old Iranian/Persian religion called Zoroastrianism (started by a dude name Zoroaster). This religion states that there are two main gods, one good, the other, evil. Earth is inhabited by people, and, among those people are agents of both gods. Life on earth is the struggle between the gods for control of the earth/people. Perhaps the island is a microcosm of this...

@Kay's 7:01am post - you said they all end up good and do good things from Jacob visiting them as young children - meaning Kate and Sawyer, but actually Sawyer - cons people and Kate - is a murderer - whether they do these things a good reason - they are still wrong.

@CAM - Constantine... yea!

@deelzbub - brick ash is used to ward off spirits also (that's more Caribbean I believe, and through the bayou country here).

Last (cliffhanger) Images from Previous Finales:

Season 1- Waaaalt! And Locke and Jack staring down the hole after blowing off the hatch door.

Season 2- Hatch implodes. Michael and Walt leave Kate, Sawyer and Jack kneeling, bound and gagged on Other dock. Portuguese guys in a tent call Penny and tell her about a reading.

Season 3- Charlie drowns (“Not Penny’s Boat”) and Jack tells Kate at the Airport runway, “We have to go back”

Season 4- Ben convinces drunk Jack (over the dead body of Jeremy Bentham in casket) that they have to bring everyone back.

Season 5- What are the last images you remember from last night?

@ Jenn3 and Kruxoli - Such a great movie. Cannot wait for the sequel. They've been shooting it since March I think. I hope it doesn't ruin the orignal. And yeah, the re-enactment of the shoot out in that room.... I have a poster of it with the prayer along the bottom :o) I'm a dork.

Wasn't Christian's casket empty when Jack found it? Why would Archie/Smokey/whoever use the body of Christian but not of Locke if it is the same force/person inhabiting both Locke and Christian?

@kruxoli - yep. Zoroastrianism... Like others have said - this theme isn't necessarily christian. Microcosm indeed.

Someone mentioned regarding me mentioning Christian's body being usurped.

I didn't say by whom. But it's obvious there are those who can do this.

And when a body is usurped, I think, after seeing Locke last night - it's not 'in the body' but embodying (like smokie and Alex).

And I am still not buying good vs. evil. Things are what they are. Humans put the spin of good/evil on something.

I'm going with there's a game being played and there are sides. We viewers are taking sides (and I'm not with Kate's group... ) - but that doesn't mean I'm good or bad. I've simply chosen a side.

I think we've all concluded that our flawed characters emote empathy from us at one time or another. That doesn't make them angels, or saints. Nor does it make them evil or devilish.

It simply makes them, and us, human.

@Deelzbub- thanks, I was too lazy to go back up and search thru everything to find your A-team reference, to give you credit, but it was solid and made me hum the theme song. You rock! Thanks.

I have not had time to read all of the comments-but heres my take...(sorry if I am repeating)
at the beginning-Jacob and "archie" cant kill each other-so the loophole was getting someone else to do it. ALSO-Jacob was never in the cabin-Archie lived there and thats why they (?) had the protective dust around it -to keep him in.Jacob lives in the statue. Apparently archie escaped-and the "help me" was a ploy to get locke to let him out.

Did anyone notice that Locke seemed to be dead when he fell out the window - until Jacob touched him????

I live in OK and we had storms and I missed like 30 minutes of the middle of the finale due to weather reports! It was terrible.... Could not believe that Juliet "died". She had grown on me.

@jentoo - we don't know what happened to christian's body. Perhaps you need it in order to become 'it.' And maybe Christian's body was moved in order to do this. Locke's may have been hidden enough that whoever has taken on the persona didn't need to move him that far, thus Alana and crew found the real Locke. JMO

Jacob and Flocke are brothers? didn't they say that at the beginning? Maybe they are Cain and Able?

@Alex: 7:03am post - interesting theory

@ Fanolost:

There's so much discussion about the Bible and Christianity...I think religion will play a big role, just don't know which one...

I think Hurley is going to play a huge role next season for two reasons. 1) The episode that seemed pointless in season 2 when Hurley's hallucination Dave comes to him on the island. I think that that was actually archie manifesting himself as Dave to try and convince Hurley to kill himself, because the end of the episode was him saying to Hurley, jump off the cliff none of this is real. 2) Jacob spoke with Hurley directly about the island which he did with no one else and also told Hurley that he is blessed.

I LOVE HURLEY!!!

Do you all remember the episode when little Ben first met Richard in the jungle. Ben told Richard about seeing his mom even though she was dead and Richard stopped him, acting surprised, and asked him if his mom had died on the island? I have always wondered why that question. Any thoughts?

@ tg : I totally thought that LOCKE looked dead after being pushed out the window until JACOB touched him

@ Amy - Well after last night's episode I would have to say in my opinion that Richard was probably nervous that her persona or what have you was snatched by Evil McEvilpants "Archie"

Can someone please remind me how to find & join the Facebook group? (wasn't on FB back when it started...) Thanks!

@ Amy:

I guess Richard asked that question because he's seen all sorts of stuff happen on the island...he's been there a long time...

I am a believer that this is going the way of a Bible analogy. It's the good vs. evil/god vs. satin with angels, fallen angels, etc. thrown into it. Jacob was allowing people to have free will throughout the episode such as when he told Ben he had a choice. This episode had my mind blown. I swear I could not fall asleep because I kept thinking about what the heck was going on and how all the pieces will fall together. It was the first thing on my mind when I woke up this morning.

@Jenn - 7:08am and Gregg - 7:12am - I was going to say - maybe Juliet was pregnant, too. It certainly looked like she was signaling morning sickness when Rose' husband mentioned the tea. Otherwise, why would they throw that scene in there?

@ tg- I just couldn't help thinking that she was prego, especially since last week's episode there was such a similar moment with Ellie and Widmore.

I thought the comment somewhere up there about the show ends with Juliet giving birth to twins was interesting

@flashest monk

The final images from last night would be the flash of the bomb going off/flash because Ben killed Jacob

I still think Archie is the judge on the island not opposite of Jacob. And he is convinced that people will always just murder steal and destroy no matter what as oppossed to Jacob who thinks humanity is a work in progress "there is only one ending anything before that is just progress"

Thanks for the reply bb

I missed the ending - so are you guys saying that we really don't know if Juliet is dead?

Has anyone been talking about the candidate thing? It's quite possible I missed it in the flurry of responses earlier (trying to do work was getting in the way of my blog reading). I wonder what Bram and Ilana meant. Frank a candidate for anything?

@tg, it's LOST, we can't say anything for sure.:)

She sure appeared to be about to die, inches away from a nuclear explosion. But the white flash could mean another time jump/skip, so I guess it is possible she was pulled out right before the explosion.

If I had to bet on it, I would bet she is dead. But that is far from factual at this moment.

@mlm, I have been wondering that too. Is it possible he is a Richard type replacement? Other than that, I am clueless as to what Illana meant.

Another question, if Richard told Sun he saw all her friends die, does this tell us anything? Richard was not at the Swan site, did he simply assume they all died? Or does he mean at a later time...hmmm.

@mlm - I had forgotten that!!!

What is that? Is he supposed to be the new... wait for it...

Richard?

Lapidus for advisor!! Actually, I think he may be up for counterpart to Richard - if we're going with the theme of two sides ...

Could this be a reference to the biblical story of the fighting twins Jacob and Esau? Was the guy who possessed John Locke Esau? If so, the reason that he had Ben kill Jacob was because in the Bible, Esau promises his father that he will not kill his brother, Jacob.

This may be a ridiculous addition to the discussion but in speaking of the Esau/Jacob references, it got me remembering about that screenplay that Hurley had called Bad Twin! Another clue that this may have been where they were going from the beginning. Huh! Oops...just read up thread. Someboday already said that.

I'm pretty done with the corny gun fights too. Where is this unlimited supply of ammo coming from??

@ambrosia - I always figured that it was a guitar in the guitar case. Maybe Charlie's?? Since they were supposed to be duplicating the the 815 flight..? I haven't thought it out that well..

What if Lapidus is a possible candidate for ... wait for it... the new leader!

Great, great, great season finale! A few things I'm wondering about - many think that when "dying" Jacob says, "They're coming" he is referring to the 1977 Losties. Yes, he visited them, but he also visited Ilana, who is right outside the statue, with her group. And he had asked for her help, in her flashback.

Also - the flash at the end - instead of the bomb going off it could be a time shift flash. I've read that you can't detonate an atomic bomb by banging on it with a rock, like Juliette did.

I was thinking that they were wondering if Lapidus was a candidate for inclusion into their group...

I said this on the old page so sorry to those that saw it this morning...
Sayid put on Horace's jumpsuit- remember when we saw the skeleton with Horace's jumpsuit in the pit post purge? What if it wasnt reall Horace and it's Sayid? Why else would they show specifically whose jumpsuit he put on?

Or a candidate for a new host body for Jacob

@berky- I thought Sayid rewired the bomb so it would go off on impact?

@ LinJoe - I saw that in this mornings flurry and meant to comment ... I still think it was Horace b/c of the convo between Horace/Smokey/Archie/Mr. McEvilpants and Locke But it was weird that the flashed to the name on the jumpsuit before he put it on.

@kruxoli - I think it's more than that...

@jenn3 - Lapidus as leader? We've got Ben and Widmore still dukin' it out...

Now we've got the added Jacob and whomever.

And we've already got the beginning crop of next generation game players.

But it didn't go off on impact when it landed at the bottom of the drill pit. My husband thought that was because it landed in mud.

@Jenn3-lol...who is Mr. McEvilpants? I havent seen that one yet...

Any thoughts on why Jacob is shown reading Flannery O'Connor's "Everything that Rises Must Converge" when he's sitting on a bench in front of John Locke's body (he has just been thrown out the window), in a flashback? Its' a great book, but I read it years ago and can't figure out the symbolism.

@ fanolost - yeah, I really don't believe that, I just though I would throw it out there.....

@linJoe - supposedly that's what the bomb was to do... but it took the injured juliet's tapping to maybe make it go off... we don't know what really happened.

@berky- I'm not sure why it didnt work the first several times it got banged around...maybe the theory is right, maybe it didnt explode but it was just a time warp due to Jacob being killed. Maybe it all happened at the same moment and the flash we saw was time, not bomb.
**sorry, dont know who came up with that, I just know I read it.

@ LinJoe - someone said it up there, he is teh other guy talking to Jacob, I can't remember who used it to give them credit...sorry :(

I haven't had a chance to read through all the comments, but it struck me today that it seemed like Jacob and Archie? have been assembling their "armies". Maybe that's why Jacob always had the list of people that he gave to Ben and why he went to visit our main losties. JMO

The term I used was Evil McEvilpants :-P

I totally forgot about this until now, but did anyone else laugh out loud when Sawyer kicked Jack in the junk? Cheap shot - but hillarious!

I also thought it was funny how all that metal debris was flying down the drill-hole without busting any of the lightbulbs that were strung down into it. Gotta love them Dharma lightbulbs.

@LOSTinTHOT - The title is taken from writings of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. His theory of evolution includes the Omega Point. Supposedly everything rises to greater complexity and enlightenment - perhaps a reference to the quest of Jacob's "game" with Flocke?

sorry mlm - I guess I was too lazy to scroll up and use the correct term too. :) It is a great name though!!!!!!!!!

I'm still chuckling at Hurley being released from jail and when colleting his personal items there was a fruit rollup.
Also, when Juliet got sucked down I, along with probably everyone else watching, predicted that Juliet would be the one to detonate the bomb. For the first time in my 4 year marriage my husband said "Honey, you were right."

Kitz - totally laughed hysterically.

Side note - my dad watched about 30 mins of the finale with me. He's never watched LOST before that, and now he wants he DVD's up so he can see it all from the beginning. I'm so proud of him! LOL.

I'm sure many have already done this but in case you haven't, for your convenience, the Doc Jensen recap:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20278837,00.html

@Jenn3 - No, i think Mr. McEvilpants works nicely. He is probably a demi-god or something. It should be a formal name haha

LOL @ LinJoe - I think the first time I heard "Honey, you were right" was during an episode of LOST too!!

I loved the jacob flashbacks!
I miss desmond too
and a do think it's charlie's guitar in de suitcase
and 7 months is way too long for such a shitty end!

@ Kitz

Oh yeah, that was hilarious! I loved the fight with the two of them. Long overdue.

@ ssarah badara

That is awesome about your dad. My dad thinks it is overrated and gave up in season 2.

@Jenn3 -- That was me with the twin theory. :)

@ mlm - LOL!

@ ssarah - a new recruit! Congrats you have now been officially upgraded into the Circle of Trust.

Some say the jacob story line is based on the story of Jacob and Esau from the bible. According to the bible, Jacob, son of Isaac, was the twin brother of Esau, who was born only minutes before him. As the oldest son, Esau was given a certain birthright that Jacob tricked him out of when the two boys were about 15 years old. Esau vowed to kill Jacob as a result. However, their father Isaac made Esau promise to never kill Jacob from his death bed. As time went on, Esau found a loophole to the promise he made to their father. He tried to trick Jacob’s own children into wanting to kill their father. It should be noted that Jacob had a total of 12 children, the youngest of which was named Benjamin. Another interesting note is that Benjamin’s mother died at childbirth.

This may seem like a stupid question, but I really need to know something. If Radzinsky died last night, how was it that he was working at the swan later?

@ ssarah - Definitely way to go on recruiting. My parents are the ones that got me addicted to Lost with these words before the season 1 finale "There's probably dinosaurs and giant gray pandas killing everyone, but it's cool" Even though it was a completely wrong assessment, how can you not watch something when someone says that to you?! haha

sorry jaytch - I try to remember but the site is crazy today!

Wow Elaine! I don't think I've read that part of Jacob's story yet on here.

A lot of people seem to think that Juliet is dead. If she died due to the bomb explosion, everybody around there would have died too, so why aren't people saying that everyone is dead and not just Juliet.
Also, why on earth didn't that fall down the tunnel kill her. I was quite surprised to see her still alive at the bottom.
I'm also confused about the love stories. Is it true love between Juliet and Sawyer, or between Sawyer and Kate, or between Kate and Jack? I kinda like Kate and Sawyer together.

@ just wondering

so glad you asked, in a non- WHH world Radzinsky could have died last night because the "incident" was NOT the bomb going off but the electromagnetic energy being released. Thus, in the original 1977 he did not die and developed the system of pushing the button.

What I've wondered about Radzinsky is that he now portrayed as such as bad-ass. What could happen that would cause him to blow his brains out so the stain was on the ceiling of the hatch. Isn't that what Kelvin told Desmond?

@CAM

Ahhhhh..thanks. Lately I need to read some posts 2 or 3 times to fully understand. So does that mean that WHH is out the window?

Juliet would be die - bomb or not - just due to her injuries. Lets say even if they flashed, those injuries would follow her (Locke and gunshot). RIP Juliet I started to like you in the end.

@Jenn3 -- No worries :)

@just wondering

Well, not really. WHH is still a theory. And we didn't see Radzinsky die last night.

Does anyone think that John Locke actually died when the plane crashed on the island and that is when "Archie" took over his body?

@CAM - right, I didn't see Radzinsky die, Phil did. RIP, won't miss you though.

@Lost in Virginia -- YES I think it's possible that's when Archie absconded with original Locke.

@lost in virginia - I'm beginning to think anyone who is 'dead' on the island is fair game to be 'borrowed' by some entity...

So yes, I wonder if we ever knew 'john locke' or we've been treated to a soul, an entity, who embodied he was john locke.

But then, why would the writers have back storied him, his dad, and helen?

Oh... so maybe the island healed him, it was John, he was special, he was supposed to be something - but then fate stepped in, he failed his mission, he tried to off himself, Ben did it in the end, and then upon returning dead to the island, was embodied by...

Hi all... first time poster here, LONG time reader.

Can anyone tell me why, after all they went through to get off the sub to go find Jack and friends, Juliette and Kate both "changed their minds" so EASILY? They (including Sawyer) were so hell bent on doing everything they could to stop Jack from getting the bomb to the Swan Station... then, all of a sudden, Kate and Juliette just change their minds??? Did anyone else pick up on this?

Love reading ALL of your posts, keep up the good work!

@fanolost -- the only word I have after reading for 7 hours is...daunting:)

@CAM- the last images of Season 5;

Jacob spitting up blood, saying "They're Coming"! and MrMcEvilpants killing him into a fire (flash)

Juliet spitting up blood, triggering the H-Bomb (we think because again a flash)

The timing and parallels in these two last scenes of the two different groups makes me think "they" are Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, etc. from 1977 back to 2007,

@just wondering and CAM- the last scene we saw Radzinsky, he was in a blue Dharma jeep that was being pulled back to the pit. It flipped, it looked like he was thrown clear. He was not a confirmed kill. We got a confirmed kill with Phil (rebar spearing thru him.) I am saying Radzinsky survived (too important a character for LOST productions not to confirm his death on camera.)

@flashest monk

Yes and Yes.

Wow, I just agreed with everything you just said? ;)

@flashest monk

thanks. it is foggy who actually is a confirmed kill during all that destruction.

@berky- Radzinsky may have been driven to suicide by the isolation of the hatch. But I postulate its a 50/50 that maybe Kelvin shot the SOB. He was a former CIA spook. I don't think he could tolerate him for very long.

sidenote on Phil:

I hate to rejoice in any death, but his was pretty awesome. And something he totally deserved!

just wondering- I watch it a couple of times because like you said earlier, it would have broken the space time continuum if Radzinsky didn't survive. But, I guess if Jack can take a 25lb red tool box to the back of the head, Radzinsky can survive jumping out of a jeep. :)

@jaytch - yes well, we have months to ponder what we thought, what we know, and what we will continue to think, wonder, and speculate.

It really sucks we have to wait. Kudos to the person who said it's all ABC's fault.

They can bring back 'Ugly Betty' but they cannot put LOST in the FALL lineup?

Why, cuz they STOLE all our characters to put them in new shows? In the hopes we'll all watch these? Did they read blogs? Will I watch a Juliet show? Will I watch Penny without he who is all things scottish?

:P:P:P:P

It has been a long day

@CAM- Phil is an example of what happens when a hippie cuts his hair and goes corporate. It gets ugly. Liked him better when he was eating hash brownies and listening to the dead. Instead, he was trying to climb the Dharma corporate ladder and steal Lefleur's position. nuff said.

@imalostfan -This was the most annoying thing about the episode. Everybody seemed to flip flop on on it. I could barely keep up with who was on what team (that is until they were all on the same team..!)

@fanolost - is it possible that John was healed specifically so he would think he was special? Given something so he would feel motivated to do whatever was asked of him in order to keep what he was given? I am thinking maybe he had been targeted as the vessel from the beginning because he was impressionable and had nothing to gain by going home.

I agree with those who've said that "They" are the 1977 Losties showing up back in 2007.

What if the bomb did go off and the biggest surprise is that there will be no Season 6. Everyone died, THE END?

oops on the name

@michelle - that could be. Or that John kept getting healed as another faction was trying to get rid of him? I haven't thought this through so it may not pan out... but it was only in death that one can be usurped, borrowed, whatever it is they do.

@will rename nameless - HAHAHAHAAHA - the ultimate psych out... I hope you're wrong.

ABC should use the song, "There's no secrets this year" from Silversun Pickups, for their 2010 promo, that would be cool.

I might be missing something. Ben told Sayid out in the real world that some people killed Nadia and that's how he got Sayid to work for him. So was the scene with Sayid and Nadia walking and married possibly and different timeline or alternate reality or did Ben claim that these people were responsible for her being hit with the car.
Is there anything there or did i just waste some time.

Couple questions on Jacob's frenemy "Archie." If the new Locke is Archie (which I tend to believe) why would he need Richard to lead him to Jacob at the statue? He knows where the statue is. Also, why would the new Locke/Archie tell all the others to follow him there? He only needed Ben. What was the point?

@arra

I believe that Ben told Sayid that one of Widmore's people was driving the car that hit Nadia. Ben then gave Sayid a list of people working for Widmore that were responsbile for Nadia's death.

@ Berky:

We don't know what happened to Radzinski...for all we know, Kelvin could have been lying to Desmond (he lied before - about there being some kind of disease or something - that's why they had to wear those suits...)

@kruxoli - Kelvin (Kurgan, shout out to highlander) lying? On Lost? ;)

Except for Rose and Bernard - who hasn't lied? Seriously?

@arra - what lost in virginia said. But I'm not sure Nadia was the target but rather Sayid was - and Jacob saved him (that's a theory on the site today...)

@I heart Miles - I don't think Archie could get into the structure - so needed Richard. I think he wanted to stage a coup of sorts - show them all Jacob is only human... so he could take over. Guess that's not working out for him...

You know, it feels like the writers are bringing in more mythological elements to the story. The giant statue, who I was expecting to be Anubus, is the god Sobek. According to Egyptian mythology, Sobek has connections to both the Underworld just like Anubis and Osirus, as well as, fertility so I wonder if the inhabitants of the island have always had fertility issues. Why doesn't the island want children on it?
Second, who is in Locke's body now and why did he want Jacob dead. Even this can be related back to Egyptian mythology, Osirus is murdered by his brother Set, who is jealous of him. All the Egyptian elements also makes me wonder if the Island is really Atlantis. In the legend of Atlantis the island, literally, dissappeared over night and the refugees who did escape ended up in both Egypt and the Americas.

@I heart miles - again. But of course the structure had a big freakin hole in the roof so really there was no need for Richard to push the stone. I'm still going with showing the 'masses' he is bigger than Jacob.

@denise - thank you for that info. Kruxoli and I have chatting about which religion or how many - and you're adding more to the Atlantis item than I knew.

I actually have read Atlantis survivors went to GBritain...

my apologies if someone already asked/mentioned this...
during Sawyer and Jack's 5 minute heart to heart Sawyer told Jack that he wanted on the sub because he felt that he could've stopped his dad from killing his mom and then killing himself. So- say Sawyer did make it back, could he really have stopped that or does it fit in with WHH?

@ fanolost- Kelvin (Kurgan)
Led Sayid to believe he couldn't speak Arabic so that Sayid would torture Tariq.
Got Desmond to live with him in the Swan for years and believe in the Sickness, when he himself did not.
During this time, secretly fixed Desmond's boat (the Elizabeth), in the hopes of escaping the Island and leaving Desmond to push the button.

The guy was a former CIA spook, I would say lieing was second nature.

@LinJoe - see that's where I think (no one pummel me) the free will would come in and Sawyer could do this.

And that's why Eloise's cautionary 'heaven help us all if you don't...' is so eery.

I mean, if you can change it, then you're altering the timeline of the world, literally. So to put WHH in there negates the chance of upsetting the world order.

I believe he could have changed things. If Archie or Jacob or Ben or Charles or Eloise didn't interfere. And my guess would be someone has been watching over all of this and would certainly intervene to prevent such a change. JMO

Been doing some thinking about this ep with Jacob and remembering the season ender where Jack has the first flash forward and how that set up the flash-forwards for the next season. So, in that vein maybe next season we get to see more of these "mystery character"-centric episodes. Like maybe Dr. Chang, Widmore, Christian, Rousseau, Richard, and hopefully Patchy! Could happen. That would be cool.

@fanolost

I also noticed that big freakin hole in the roof of the foot. I wondered why there was no smoke coming out of that hole which would have been visible from the outside.

@Flashest Monk - yep. that' why I wrote it tongue-in-cheek... and yet we all still want to believe ... and they always lie... every one of em...

@LinJoe- Sawyer said he could have gotten on the sub to stop his Dad killing his Mom. (That happened in 1976) but he didn't because what's done is done. He was trying to shame Jack into realizing he was being selfish, risking everyone's life just to see if he could win Kate back. Didn't work. (As far as WHH- that's still debatable whether (if he chose to do so) he could have stopped his Dad, or the universe would have course corrected.

@lost in virginia - yeah. I didn't think you had to go in through the door... and certainly a burning body would emit smoke and smell?

@flashest monk- thank you, I hadnt looked at it that way.

@fanolost- Hey, even Warner Bros and ABC lied about Elizabeth Mitchell being a guest star of V and now she's the star. (choking on tongue- first time a big corporation has lied to me.)

@Deelzub- I would say I would be really surprised if we didn't learn more about Richard Alpert and Widmore, since they are still central to everything. Christian and Grandpa Ray if we get to lineage. Chang and Radzinsky (maybe) if we revisit Dharma history, I'm thinking that's played out. It was fun learning about it though.

I think this summer we all need to concentrate on what possibly we need to 'know' at the end of 17 shows.

Cuz it cannot be everything. I absolutely agree flashest monk - that Chang, Radzinsky are likely not major players. And we'll maybe see them, but not know them.

I wonder how far back the writers will go in the series in order to explain the present - or if, as the shows unfold - we'll all go 'yeah, I remember when that happened to Eko...'

So they'll tie up the loose ends in that fashion without wasting precious minutes on old edits.

It's gonna be an interesting ride. But dang, I wish it was starting in Fall. There's no Wednesday night football, is there?

@fanolost- Don't give ABC any ideas, I can see it now Wednesday Night Lights starring Walt, Mr Eko and Vincent the dog. LOL

@flashest monk
For some reason I dont think we're done with 77. At least in flashback form anyway.
Purge maybe?

I'm not sure if this has been stated yet, but wouldn't we have to assume what is happening with Locke's body was the same thing that happened with Russeau's boyfriend when he was swallowed down the hole into the temple?

Rose and Bernard were CHILLIN! Rose and Bernard are the wisest of them all :).

I still believe that WHH - even though Faraday tried to change things, I don't think he was successful. Why - you ask? The song that he was playing on the piano as a child and as a deranged adult was, "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows."

Look up the lyrics - don't think his plan worked.

@ PocoCoco:

Not sure, but I think someone may have mentioned your idea already...it could be in last week's thread...not sure tho. Good idea...

I'm Always Chasing Rainbows

At the end of the rainbow there's happiness
and to find it how often I've tried
but my life is a race, just a wild goose chase
and my dreams have all been denied!

Why have I always been a failure?
What can the reason be?
I wonder if the world's to blame?
I wonder if it could be me?

I'm always chasing rainbows
watching clouds drifting by!
My schemes are just like all of my dreams
ending in the sky!

Some fellows look and find the sunshine
I always look and find the rain!
Some fellows make a winning sometime
I never even make a gain!

Believe me . . .

I'm always chasing rainbows
waiting to find a little blue bird in vain!

The lyrics sound like the way I feel at the end of a season of Lost!

@ AZ Wildcat:

Ditto to that!

Dose anyone agree with me that the statue doesn't look like Anubus, from the angle shown last night, the mouth look like a crocodile's mouth.

and I think the flash last night at the end was a time jump back to 2007 and the H-bomb did go off and Richard saw that at a distance. So he thought they all died.

Love this episode. I thought it looked like Juliet was pregnant, too, by the way she touched her belly. I am so annoyed by Juliet but it was kind of sad when she dropped.

And, I was sooo disappointed that Jack made it seem like he did all of this for KATE? Seriously? That was so lame. He's way better than her.

2010 seems like a long ways away.

I thought the lunchbox, young Kate stole was a "Party of Five" lunchbox. Would have been a nice toss out to Matthew Fox.

@Chris

Would be funny if it was a party of five lunchbox, but it was a New Kids on the Block lunchbox as per Lostpedia

Do we know who the little boy was with Kate when she stole the lunchbox?

@Kruxoli

It was Tom Brennan who is Kate's childhood boyfriend. He is the one who gave her the toy airplane that we saw her with on the island.

Although I disagree with Daniel on his opinion of the finale, I do agree that season five wasn't that great as a whole.

It was to mechanical, and lacking heart. Remeber the episode with Hurley and the van? There wasn't much mystery in it, and people thought it was a wasted episode because of it. but now it's an episode that people look back on and love it. Season five should have had more of those moments.

And more Desmond. Desmond was the heart of the show, I think anyways.

i'm kind of curious as to what locke's reaction would be to seeing his dead body.

how much of new locke is locke and how much of new locke is the entity that is possessing him? on the one hand he could already know that he isn't "locke" and that he is a deception in order to achieve a goal. on the other hand, maybe he is a victim, a tool, of the possessor that is using his soul, his spirit to reach the goal.

maybe new locke really thinks he is john locke and that he somehow survived death. i would really like to see that reaction.

did anyone else notice an older looking juliet behind ben and sun in 5x17?

@ becky monster, you summarized it completely. Clearly Jacob and his foe are not humans. I think what we have to figure out is who is the god and who the devil. On the surface it does seem Jacob who has compassion for poor human kind is the good one, but I think he is just playing with people for his own satisfaction or experiment and that in the end the Being inhabiting Locke will turn out to be good in trying to end the manipulation of people jacob commits. Reminded me of the final Star Wars (3) where The Empire originally stood for good side but became corrupted by the Emporer who turned it to "on dark side"- it took a long time for people to understand and switch sides to what really was right.
Also got the impression from the opening conversation of the show that Jacob had tried to help humankind to some some resolution he wanted more than once by his nemesis fed up comment of "you are bringing people back here again? they just destroy, etc) Before the Black Rock era of people it would seem it was the Egyptions based on the statue. I would bet Ilana and crew are from the Egyptioan period based on statue question. Would not be surprised at all if reincarnation has lots to do with all this. The losties more than anyone...

OMG JUST got finished reading all the posts. I have to say that I loved this finale. I agree with a lot of things posted today:
Juliet could be pregnant
The white flash was a flash caused by Jacob's death, not by the bomb going off
Rose and Bernard ROCK - love that they are "retired"
Thought Ben's line was great - "I lie. That's what I do"
EviLocke was the man on the beach with Jacob and it as the Black Rock in the distance - however, how did it end up in the middle of the island
I also thought that Locke was dead after his fall and that Jacob brought him back. Remember Richard said that he was "this way because of Jacob"
I think Richard was confused by Locke being alive. He knows the island can heal and Jacob can make him young forever, but to bring Locke back from the dead?? And to have Lock telling him what to do (visit birth, gunshot, compass) may have been different than what Richard "knew" to occur. That's why Richard has seemed so, well, clueless lately (but still hot!)

Am questioning if Jacob IS good vs. the evil, based on the biblical story (and ssarah, you weren't alone, you had a whole lot of other people agreeing! :D )
I LOVED the Jacob flashbacks. SO cool but I was telling a friend that we finally got to see Jacob and then HE DIED!!

I hope this site stays up for a while. It was so frustrating when it went down last summer. Here's the FB link - and Jenn3, looks like you'll have to sign up now!! :)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=64046309045
I posted it earlier for someone. Hope it works.

Jacob didn't 'touch' everyone of them...he gave them all something....Kate the stupid lunch box, Sawyer the Pen, Jack the candy, Hurley the guitar.....my tv froze with Jin and Sun and Sayid? But I just didnt' settle with the idea that he was the 'good' one.....I think 'they're coming' is related to Jack et al...he recruited them after all - but i have a feeling they are coming not as themselves - I think they did die but like Locke/Christian/Claire (who defintiely died in the explosion - later when they were camping) they are going to be 'alive' but not themselves...I'm not sure Ben is himself either....
I like Denise's theory that the island is like atlantis......cool!
Daniel, this finale was AWESOME - I was on the edge of the bed the entire time - it left me waiting for 2010 in the worst way!!!

btw - like the fake sub scene...Ben killing Jacob was pathetically acted.......

Well, they certainly accomplished what they wanted; they got everyone talking. Just like HBO did with the Sopranos “fade to black.”

The theme of good against evil has been at the center of the series from day one, but I feel things have gotten more complicated. Now, we have someone who appears to have “angelic or god-like powers” walking the earth in the form of Jacob. How could John Locke have survived such a fall from that window? Jacob touched him like the Messiah and brought him back to life. My question is, what difference does it make whether things are “carried out” on that island or out in the world. What’s the deal with that island? Fighting and killing is going on out in the world.

What was the other man’s name who appears to be the “evil” one? I noticed others were calling him Archie, or is that a joke for the Jughead bomb. My former bosses name was Archie (for Archer) and he was the nicest guy.

Elaine posted a snippet of the biblical story of Jacob and his brother Esau. There are obvious references to this biblical story in this series. The question is, how does this all tie in?

Either the bomb did go off or there was another “time change” and we’ll have to wait quite a few months to find out where the heck they all landed. I don’t think everyone is dead. That would just be awful, not make any sense, and piss me off big time.

I think Jacob chose people individually at certain times throughout the different periods for this “experiment” in human behavior. The evil one did suggest that at the beginning of part one. What did Ilana call Richard? Ricarsio—something like that? And what language did Richard speak when he answered the question?

Thank you Daniel, I'm going to miss these entries while we wait for the show to return!

So I gotta rewatch the episode tonight, because not only did I miss the normal amount I would miss in an episode, but I missed extra because those who I was watching with had to TALK all through it... so I missed some bits. Probably important stuff, too. *rolls eyes*

And is is just me, or was Jacob kinda cute? I had a feeling that Locke was fake-Locke. And knew for sure when there was Locke's body, and when Jacob said "Found a loophole". Although when Jacob first came on I had a fear it was Charlie coming back. Phew, I was wrong.

Now if only I could convince certain boys that no really, Locke is dead and the guy running around who looks like Locke is fake-Locke... oy.

Okay, watching Grey's and then LOST. :)

What I have read makes since but I really bevile that the eye at the end is Jack's eye like from the every begining!

@Diana,
It may take some sifting, but most of your questions were discussed today...although only a few actual "answers" were to be found :) (ps-archie came from jacob's "arch nemesis", his buddy from the beach at the beginning of the episode)

What I have read makes since but I really bevile that the eye at the end is Jack's eye like from the every begining!